Do these rudimental exercises have a name?

[Rene]

^^ no problem here

The single / double (hybrid) rudiment reminded me of this video with Joe Morello, where he demonstrates this one (paradiddle included, single, doubles, paradiddles)



Just to help you out. Here's another resource you can investigate; over 500 hybrid rudiments ..... http://www.ninjadrummist.com/drum-rudiments/rudiment-encyclopedia/

Welll, if this hybrid rudiment isn't defined yet, why not name it after ........... Joe?

Rene

[Gaddabout]

In a Modern Drummer issue from a few years back, possibly the one with the last Vinnie cover story, there was a lesson that mentioned "RllrrL" as a six-stroke roll, only phrased the way jazz drummers might phrase it. I think the article also mentioned an eight-stroke roll RLrrllrr, also the way a jazz drummer might phrase it. Neither had any specific name, just a different starting/accent point. I just took it as similar to a piano. A c E is an Am triad same as c E A would be.

I acknowledge there's a lot of miscommunication for rudiments among drummers, partly because there's not always a formal education grounding. Even DCI only recently (meaning in my lifetime) began to require reading as part of its culture. But also partly because even the so-called educated don't really agree.

I think the thing about rudiments is there's a lot of confusion over what are "basic" rudiments, what are "basic" variants, and what are "hybrids." A lot of PAS traditionalists I've met are actually offended by the idea of hybrids because, as far as they're concerned, they're all just variants of the original 26 or 40 or 26 (LOL!), depending which era of PAS you come from.

You are unlikely to run into a PAS traditionalist who will ever refer to a paradiddle-diddle variant like RllrrL referred to as a six-stroke roll. In their minds a six-stroke roll has two distinct taps in it and an eighth-note's worth of roll. It's usually notated by one sixteenth-note tied to an eight-note roll tied to a sixteenth-note. Paradiddle-diddles', on the other hand, are almost always written out in exact value (i.e. eighth-notes, sixteenths, sextuplets, 32nds, etc), with the stickings noted below each note. Rolls are just rolls -- no need to notate stickings.

I write all this, I guess, to suggest there's really no need to name "hybrid" rudiments, ESPECIALLY paradiddle variants. They're not new or even unique to the rudimental community. They're just variants of the same paradiddle, paraparadiddle, or paradiddlediddle rudiments long covered in the original 26. DCI guys like to add a flam over the paras or the diddles and call them new things, because it often requires a special and unique mastery of them, but the rudiments themselves remain mostly intact.

I remember going to camp with Vanguard one fall in the 80s and everyone was talking about "cheese." I was like, "what the hell is cheese?" and they looked at me as if I'd been on another planet. Turns out their "cheese" was what I had termed "flittles" (drag on tap of the flam in a flam accent).

[matthughen]

Excellent points, Matt.
I think some confusion arises from the old school notation that PAS tends to adhere to vs. modern notations. More often than not if you encounter a 6stroke roll in contemporary marching, it will be written as 4 sixteenth notes with diddle markings on the 2nd and 3rd 16notes (the E and the &). This leaves little confusion as to what is expected and will generally illicit a strict, mathematical interpretation.
So, how does one best notate the desire to execute opened, fat, evenly spaced 6 strokes? The only way I can think would be to write 6 16th-note triplets with the sticking R l l r r L. The figure, to me, seems intended to be a slurred, open 6stroke vs. a Left-hand-lead parradiddle-diddle variation (starting on the "RA" {yikes}). The slurred 6 stroke is VERY common in the contemporary drumming repertoire.. . . darge ga-darge ga-darge ga-smack!

If you are a right hander and you attempt to play a series of left hand paradiddle-diddles, you are probably going to experience some awkwardness and limitations on speed and evenness as a result playing a lead off your week hand. I know I do. If you sit down to play open 6strokes off the right hand most advanced players dont have any real issue making these work, acheiving good speed and good quality of sound . . . The funny part is the hand motions of these two ARE IDENTICAL!

6 strokes kill!

[DeeP_FRieD]

a double para-diddle is rlrlrr

so this would be a quadruple para-diddle-diddle.

at that point I would just see as a quaternote of singles to a quarternote of doubles doubles

[Jean-Paul]

Thanks again for all the input! Much appreciated!

The whole thing is about translation really. In Europe, or Holland at least, I've come across some slightly different terms or even regular wrong naming.
I'll give some examples.

Break - for Fill [I suppose break means pause]
Afterbeat - for Backbeat [Downbeat is just not a common term]
Afterbeat - for Off Beat
Cup - for Bell [cymbal]
Rimshot - for Rimclick or Cross Stick
Decrescendo - for Diminuendo

I care for drum tradition and for being accurate in naming stuff the right way. I make my students listen en study Sonny Payne, Max Roach and Art Blakey. But also John Bonham, Ringo Starr and Lars Ulrich, or Steve Jordan, Steve Gadd and Clyde Stubblefield before diving into Vinnie, Weckl, Pridgen, Harrison, Hoenig, Tain Watts and JoJo Mayer. The best part is that most kids like the old skool very much once they start really transcribing and playing. Somehow, a lot of schools and teachers over here seem to 'please' their students, rather then to challenge them.

It's not about translation, it's about ignorence. And downbeat is a pretty common thing.

[Matthijs Ament]

Thanks again! Matt, nicely put!

@ Rene The "Killer" ex. Morello shows is exactly what I was talking about.
@ Matthughen & Circh Bustom; thanks for clearing that out.

@Jean Paul. I agree on the ignorance part, but I'm often amazed about how few guys, except jazz drummers and guys studying music, use the term 'downbeat'. My guess is that the term has to do with arm movements from a conductor. He moves 'down' to count 'one' and 'up' to count 2 etc. But 'upbeat' is mostly used to point out the syncopated eight notes I think. How would you translate 'downbeat' to Dutch other then 'play on one and three'?

[Jean-Paul]

Hey Matthijs, IMO the downbeat is just the one and not the three. Here's a link which says the same http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downbeat_(muziek) the English version is good too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(music) JP

[matthughen]

Nobody asked me but I am going to continue to expand on the idea I have been bouncing around in my head for a few years!

It started from being on a gig that required me to execute the following lick: paradiddle-diddle paradidle-diddle paradiddle, paradiddle-diddle, paradiddle-diddle, paradiddle. (PDD PDD PD, PDD PDD PD)

Having to play this consistently, multiple times, on a daily basis, cleanly with other drummers, brought me fully in touch with the weakness in my left hand when playing left lead PDDs. I needed to practice and address this weakness. This lead me down a path that ultimately resulted in the discovery of the direct relationship between 6strokes and PDDs. As I mentioned before, right handed 6strokes can be identical to left handed PDDs in term of hand motion. So why would one be seemingly MUCH harder to execute than the other? There is no physical reason for this to be true, so it must be somewhat mental. Once I made this connection and practiced a bit with this connection in mind I noticed an almost IMMEDIATE improvement in the sound quality and consistency of my left PDDs. This experience drove home the power of the mind and perception of my own limitation. My barrier was more mental than physical.

For those who dont see how 6strokes and Left handed PDDs can be identical I'll try to illustrate as best I can. First is a string of 4 6strokes off the right:
R ll rr L, R ll rr L, R ll rr L, R ll rr L, R - The green portinos represent the Lefthand PDDs embedded in 6strokes

Next is a string of 4 Left handed PDDs
L R ll rr, L R ll rr, L R ll rr, L R ll rr, L - The green portions represent the Right hand 6strokes embedded in Left hand PDDs.


There are lots of other similar connections: ternary rolls = swiss triplets, flamtaps = 3stroke (french) rolls . . .

Often times our limitations are predominantly mental. In my case, the belief that my left hand weakness is just a naturally occurring and somewhat unavoidable limitation of being right handed was easier to overcome with a change in mental approach.

[Jean-Paul]

Cool reply, I faced something similar today. I was 4 weeks in Shanghai for work without a practice pad and today I went back to page 1 Stick Control. What's the difference between rlll rlll or lllr lllr? My bad is that due to extensive shuffle playing I tend to accent the 2 and 4. My left hand is doing a thing on its own and playing accents when Ii don't want it to. It is a mental thing and there are a couple of exercises with grouping of 3 strokes per hand which cause difficulties. I really dig this shit and try to overcome my mental block. I don't want my left to play something very cool without me knowing it

[Gaddabout]

Matt, I have the EXACT same problem and was thinking about it when writing my last response. I just assumed I was the only one with that kind of weakness. LOL

Another one is the difference between triple strokes vs. landing the grace note in a flam coming out of a double stroke. Why is that so hard compared to the relative ease of a triple stroke? It took me forever to get in and out of that.