Composed vs. Improvised solos

[Jeremy Smirnoff]

This is something that I have been thinking about lately during my sabbatical away from drumming (birth of my son).

I have been struggling a bit to mentally justify to myself why drummers tend to compose and perform solos with the same basic structure on a regular basis. Mind you, some of these guys are certainly my influences, but I cannot wrap my head around this. Mr. Peart has been doing it on a regular basis since who knows when, now one of my teachers (Mangini) is starting to do it with DT (keeping the structure in place and maybe improvising in small bits here and there). I am not really in much contact with him to ask him, but I am having trouble coming up with any benefits to doing this versus straight improv. Improvised solos just come off a bit more adventurous and sincere and FUN compared to structured/composed ones. I am not really dogging the approach, as much as I would love to hear the take of those who do it. What's the idea? Why THIS approach versus just letting things flow as they happen that particular night? I don't think I have ever consciously structured a solo in the 24 years I have played. It always seems to happen spontaneously. I mean, there have been arrangements with other drummers (trading 4 sets of 4s, then a section of keeping time together, then trading more fours, etc... kind of what the Vinnie/Weckl/Gadd thing at B. Rich thing was, which I think was ALL improvised outside of the arrangement), but I don't really know what the advantage is of playing SPECIFIC licks/fills/parts whatnot. Anyone care to help? Humbly yours.

[Cymbalfeltfetishist]

Well I think the two guys you have mentioned are very much methodical thinkers. It's a personality thing. I certainly think that they both could play something off the cuff and it would sound decent to say the least, but to them, they want it 10 out of 10, not 6 or 7 out of 10. To them, it's perfection. I would say wanting to be consistent is something that is important to them. Guys like Mangini probably like to condense his idea's because he has a plethora of facility and chops. Neil views his solos like a song or a composition.

I'm not saying improvisers couldn't play 10 out of 10, but there is more 'risk' involved. To some, they thrive on that risk, that "on the edge of your seat" kind of soloing. But again, the "thinker/planner/OCD" kind of player doesn't want to take that chance. They are not scared, it's just not the way they were made.

[DSOP]

True improvisation is too risky when the stakes are that high. Also, the two drummers you reference are dealing with a "show" more than just music. There are time and scheduling constraints, as well as key cues which will trigger or signal different things (for lighting designers, sound engineers, etc).

Even John Bonham followed a specific "form" for his solos.

Personally, if I want to hear someone improvise, i'm probably going to listen to jazz. I also have no interest in drum solos, especially when it comes to anything outside of the jazz realm.

[Josiah]

Wow... ok.


Haven't heard Mike with DT yet, but other solos of his in various context are very obviously filled with improvisation/free form. Peart on the other hand. I think it's a safety net with Peart, his playing hasn't changed in 30 plus years - pretty much the same solo for the last decade now as is. He delivers that particular product and (maybe?) has no interest in evolving any further as a musician.

Considering the number of guys who actually do pre-written out solos is in the utmost tiny minority, it's probably a personal thing. Soloing over a vamp, form, melody, structure, etc is the common place method.

Music is expression, a solo spot for drums is a chance to express whatever that drummer wants too. Imagine a person who repeated the same 2 paragraphs verbatim every single time someone asked their opinion? Talking points should never be applied to music.


Miles Davis -
“Do not fear mistakes. There are none.”
“If it sounds clean and slick, I’ve been doing it too long.”

[Isaac Lee]

Miles Davis -
“Do not fear mistakes. There are none.”
“If it sounds clean and slick, I’ve been doing it too long.”

Dang, that blew my mind a bit.

[Phil T.]

I'll agree that the bigger the show / spectacle component, the more composed the solo will be. We've gone back as far as Bonham, but I think Buddy Rich's "West Side Story" big solo feature was also pretty tightly structured.

[willyz]

I don't know if it was intentional or not before he started playing, but the solo Tony Williams plays on that Zildjian Day footage is amazing. One drum at a time, he paints these pictures that just resonate with me long after seeing/hearing the footage for the first time.

[Riddim]

I think a big reason lots of folks don’t like drum solos is that what they often hear is not well thought out; it’s often a mish mash of stunts or calisthenics. In my experience, most folks want to hear something logical and intended, not how much we’ve been practicing or how bad we think we are. Playing fast is like speaking fast – it’s not a substitute for clarity, logic, or wisdom. It’s not the vocabulary we have, it’s the story we tell.

If you're dealing with an audience uncomfortable with taking risks or making mental leaps (e.g., your typical rock or country audience), or that is congenitally opposed to the very idea of drummers soloing, then, it might help to have a few outlines in mind.

The bottom line is telling an interesting, moving, story, I think. However you do that is your choice.

[Peter C]

I love composed solos WHEN they are
made part of the music. Right away,
I think of the work Steve did on The
Three Quartets album, with Chick.

Steve is VERY structured but I think he
plays within the musical context and
that is what does it for me. It's so
dynamic and a part.

Ndugu is like that, too. He can really
explore the drums, within the music.
There are others, too. Tony, of course
and Elvin. There are many but that
is what I like. I don't mind the cutting
loose but it has to be in a context.

When I want to go to the circus, I go
to see Cirque Du Soleil.

Regards,

P

[Josiah]

I think solos on albums will tend to be more thought out because of the permanence and various magnifying effects of recording.

That said, looking at Live recorded albums, such as Karizma's Document, you got everyone unleashing some serious chops at whim. All of the tracks (and solos) on the UnReel album are first takes. And Vinnie plays some seriously ferocious stuff.

A lot of guitar solos are first take on albums, MJ's 'Beat It' for instance.

I'll agree that the bigger the show / spectacle component, the more composed the solo will be. We've gone back as far as Bonham, but I think Buddy Rich's "West Side Story" big solo feature was also pretty tightly structured.

True, but it's also never played the same twice. Or any Buddy solo for that matter. It's always Buddy, but it's always something different.


I've been too and played tons of shows in various contexts, genre's, etc and drum solos always get a pretty rousing response.


The circus act reference always reminds me of the stuff on Lang's 'Creative Control', the absurd stick tricks and visual movements combined with (IMO) very unmusical though complex exercises/licks.