Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....

[Ardent15]

At what point does emulation/imitation stop and an individual's own unique musical voice begin? Is there a lot of overlap?

Example: Vinnie Colaiuta was influenced by Tony Williams and Steve Gadd. So was Dave Weckl. Yet clearly, they have taken pretty different paths from what were many of the same influences.

At what point does a player stop being derivative of their influences and emerge as a distinctive, unique voice?

My guess is, there's no "dividing line" between the two. It's really a gradual process, of many many years of listening, practicing, playing, and listening and practicing some more.

Then again, Tony was on stage with Miles Davis at 15, IIRC....

[Riddim]

When one answers the questions posed by the music in their own way, vs. what would so and so do.

When we were little, we learned to speak from our parents; we probably imitated what they said for a while. As we got out into the world, we learned that parroting what was said at home didn't necessarily fit in the situations we found ourselves is, and learned to respond in context. The same thing applies here.

[john lamb]

Tony Williams grew up listening to Miles, so when he finally got on stage, it was his native language. IMO he would not have made the massive impact he did in any other significantly different context. (that being said, TW is probably my fav drummer of all time)

[Rene]

Great, interesting question. I believe to think that your own personel style is present, as rough as it is, the first time you start playing. Emulation doesn't stop at a certain point necessarily. I think influences can push you as a player as much as you open up to them, wether your are 20 or 60. The influence of another drummer is not IMO a gradual proces. Personal experiences pushes you back and forth with respect to drummers. UK drummer Andy Gangadeen explained his view on "stretching time". That pushed me back listening to jeff porcaro listening and to Poogy Bell on Erikah Badu "live".

I also like to listen to older and newer recordings with VC on it, eg FZ versus Herby Hancock. One would assume that in VC younger years Tony's would be much more present. Probably a lot would diagree with me, but I don't hear any (very little) Tony during his Zappa period. Yet a groove like "doing work for Yuda" on Joe's Garage is a groove Steve Gadd could have made up. And yet the differences between Vinnie a la 2012 and Vinnie with Zappa or a Vinnie's first appearance with Sting or on the "back to bass"-tour are clearly there. And I believe that Steve Gadd influence on Vinnie or Dave is as strong today as it was 30 years ago.

While typing this, it reminded me of this interview in '89.

.....

RF: Your mentioning Frank Zappa made me want to ask you this next question at the risk of offending you: I have noticed that Zappa's drummers are traditionally real hotshots, but somewhere along the line, when they first leave his group, their feel isn't there. Do you relate to that personally?

VC: I don't think that happened to me, because I was too interested in playing music on the drums, not just chops. I wanted to get a good feel, because I was listening to a lot of drummers who I admired liked Jeff [Porcaro], who is serious feel. Feel is real important to me.

RF: But when I first saw you after Zappa, although I was blown away by your capabilities, it didn't have a lot of feel. It obviously came together after a bit, but immediately, no.

VC: When I played at the Gib, I was sowing my oats.

RF: How so?

VC: There were tunes I made feel good, but then I'd go for stuff, too. I don't know if I was always keeping the feel while going for stuff. I was overloaded with so much energy, and that was a weird time period in my life. I can't really say I had it together then. I was trying to carve my little spot. I was always pushing myself to my limits, playing that style of music. That was important to me at that time, in order to grow. And I think that it's better to take yourself out as far as you can, physically and mentally, and then pull back. Then you know how far you shouldn't go, instead of not being able to go there.

RF: But now I hear you take things out with feel

............

[Josiah]

I remember hearing that Style, Talent and Personality on an instrument don't appear til a substantial ways along the growth.

I tend to agree with that assessment. Because particularly with drums, it takes so long for people to get out of the mechanical phase, and then again out of the patterns phase (of learning), that true creativity and personality doesn't appear for a LONG time.

In my experience at high learning institutions and through private teaching that most people do not make it to the point of being a distinctive and creative force behind the kit. If you look at the learning phases -

1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence


Most drummers don't make it to stage 3, and it really ramps up getting into stage 4.

Breaking out of the patterns, and more importantly, the muscle memory*, to become truly creative is a great accomplishment. Until then, it's very limited creativity within the bounds of what has been learned.

*Breaking out of the muscle memory bounds is the primary reason Vinnie sites for switching to Traditional Grip.

[langmick]

It takes confidence, guts and courage to say for oneself "I am me." and do what it takes to become that.

It's a "letting go" that allows one to become an individual, for good or bad.

Technique is there to remove barriers to expreission, but some great drummers don't have perfect technique, but are individuals...

It could be that you just have it in your DNA, the wiring of your brains and how you are affected by environment...

Anyways, I'm off to order a set of red Tama Supertars and have them Vibra-Fibed by the Percussion Centre of Fort Wayne.

[Ardent15]

Great responses everyone! Food for thought....

[smoggrocks]

My playing has gone backwards in the past five years, truly. I just don't have much time to practice. But two things stand out for me--jack dejohnette's video, in which he encourages us to trust our intuitive musical sense, and the admonitions of all my teachers, who always told me to strive to be myself. I never thought of myself as being influenced by drummers so much as inspired by them. Went thru a short period when I wanted to be tain and /or have Tony's ride sound but that was short lived. I just want to have the physical skills to do what I want and play what I hear. Maybe it won't be the most original voice out there. But if it sounds good works for the music and makes me happy, all is well. If you're true to yourself in life, you become distinct in some capacity.

All that said, we still have to work really hard to get the physical skills together and master a set of language. I am always inspired by Steve, who is continually reaching and striving to improve his game.

[drum6282]

It's a very frustrating thing for any musician to find their "sound". The guys that inspire me are so different - Vinnie, Tony, Gadd, Weckl to Chris Dave, Mark Guiliana, and Adam Deitch to Brian Blade, Bill Stewart and Eric Harland, etc. etc... Then you have guys like Matt Chamberlain and Billy Ward, Jim Keltner.
Matt Chamberlain says in his most recent interview with MD that if you don't bring anything to the table what's the point? That really resonated with me because for so many recordings and bands I've played with, I've always approached it with just laying the drums down. As I get more comfortable, I'll start adding more and more of what I hear going on in my head. But, that's difficult on the spot, especially in the studio setting. Who am I? What would I do? Never comes to mind. It's always hearing what I'm playing as if this or that drummer were approaching it. I'm no where near the technical level of the drummers I listed above, or have the feel of those guys either - I have my own technique and my own feel, I just hope it comes across to the other guys. This is a very "mature" subject for most to take in - I feel most guys just find their style - like Chris Dave - his Vater clip has him saying that he just has a fetish with snare drums - he's influenced by Tony and Elvin and while I can hear that in the technique area, there's not much about his style that reflects that IMO. Those guys are all so comfortable behind the kit. I've had to learn to just be me and be comfortable. Maybe it's not having 3 snares, play with shakers in your feet, a 24" ride, or have fills that somehow sound like you're falling down the steps, but come back in right when they're supposed to, it's about being you and allowing all you've soaked up to come out. I've been on this kick lately, and it seems as though I've recognized who I am - I was "that" all along, just finally recognized what I bring to the table. It's not going to change the world of drumming and I probably won't ever be on the cover of MD - just be me and have fun at it - that's all you have to do too. Your gear helps, but I've learned in trying to sound like this drummer or that drummer that you never sound like them because of gear. It's all touch and feel.

[Riddim]

Touch, feel, and your take on what's happening.

That's it.