Tempo Issues-- Help!

[willyz]

Is the MD conducting or playing an instrument and just counting off tempos? If there is someone conducting, they're the ones at fault for tempo (for the most part, as there are other variables within the individual players following the conductor) fluctuations that aren't intentional. You're following the chart and following them- you're not counting off the tunes as if it were a band, dig?

Also, is there a cast recording to your show? Nine times out of ten, the cast will rehearse to the recording if they can't get a rehearsal pianist (lucky for you if the rehearsal pianist also happens to be playing in the pit and/or the MD). This creates several obvious issues with the timing of everything, and let's not forget that the books sent to the theater are a completely different arrangement to the cast recording (most of the time...). Most major professional productions (Broadway, West End, tours, etc) are synced with a click for the sake of the whole production (scene changes, set pieces, lighting- the whole nine yards) these days. Unless bringing a click in for yourself or to make a point about blame for the tempo's, I'd leave it at home if you're already past dress rehearsals. It's tough, because (from my experience) the pit really only gets a couple rehearsals (if even) with the cast and running the full show before dress-week. Can be tough to nail things depending on who you're working with overall, and it may not even gel correctly until the second weekend of the show (assuming you're doing more than one weekend, of course).

I miss playing theater gigs- the money was pretty decent and it was a great learning experience for me as I started doing those gigs when I was about 15... anyway, good luck man!

[Gaddabout]

I struggle with time if the lead instrument has time problems. I try to lock in with the keyboard or rhythm guitar while laying something solid for the bassist. When they get elastic, I tend to get elastic too.

This is great when the group has time to themselves to work it out and make it sound organic, but in your scenario, I think it's a huge challenge. Besides recording, I'd suggest filming the MD to see where here time is and cues are.

[Jim Richman]

Or maybe you can just eat it, cause you seem to have done a lot of these things. Which usually requires you to eat it anyway.

Sorry Jim but this is the LAST thing that I would EVER do!!!!! That seems like the fastest way to get fired to me.


MSG

That's why you eat it, job security. But the thing is, if you KNOW something is not your fault, and you get blamed for it---would you take it up the %%%?

[smoggrocks]

argh. i wrote a thoughtful reply and it blew up in cyberspace. so i'll just say: logistics, mechanics and politics aside--i saw this as a drummer-dancer-keyboardist issue. and i even started to wonder if it was a tempo issue or a feel issue. i haven't done a gig like this, but i did a lot of dance back in the day, so i was going to offer that perspective relative to the music.

in a nutshell--i thought you should tell the keyboardist to kick that left hand up the arse so you could create a really solid musical feel for the dancers. dancers follow music before movement. also, these seem to be singers-cum-dancers, so it's going to take even more work. might have to slow everything down so they nail singing/dance parts first. singing+dancing is extremely difficult.

regarding your back...well, i saw 'drumming hiatus' + 'back problem' + 'timing' and thought, 'yup.' i've had some pretty intense back issues the past few years. they will absolutely affect your timing. your legs don't get the same response. and if you're sitting on a nerve, those signals will really stall. doing squats and any kind of ab strengthening moves that you can handle are good ways to build the surrounding area and support the back.


again, i've no experience playing in this scenario, but thought to give a perspective from the dance side.


very interested to know how you fared!

[nomsgmusic]

[/quote] I would state to your MD that you are not the one to blame for the tempo issues. You are a seasoned pro and the tempo issues lay elsewhere. As a drummer, it should be obvious when someone points out a tempo issue about your playing. But when you KNOW it's not your faul, it is time to tell them what's up. Or maybe you can just eat it, cause you seem to have done a lot of these things. Which usually requires you to eat it anyway.[/quote]

[/quote]That's why you eat it, job security. But the thing is, if you KNOW something is not your fault, and you get blamed for it---would you take it up the %%%?[/quote]

Jim,
I don't want to get all pedantic here, but the tone of "eating it," "taking it up the %%% ?" or the entire first part of your initial quoted reply, just seems very harsh and contrary to creating a good and productive working environment.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not "offended," I'm no puritan! It's the tone that those phrases create that should be avoided.

So how about the phrase "Take one for the team."

Again, I don't want to argue semantics here, but this forum is probably viewed by younger drummers who are trying their damndest to get their feet in the door. And being argumentative or obstinate while trying to create a reputation in this (or any) field, is a VERY quick way to obscurity, and the unemployment line.

Respectfully,
MSG

[littlegrooves]

Thanks everyone for the great, thoughtful responses—I’ve never come across another site where you can ask such a question and get back such professional, well-reasoned and experienced-based feedback in such an insane short amount of time.

First off, the aforementioned feedback that everyone gave helped in one huge way, and that was to be reminded how many people had experienced these same issues—it really helps one to look beyond the “this sucks” aspect and get to the “let’s get to the bottom of this” frame of mind. Therefore, thanks for that!

As for how the gig went/is going—I couldn’t be happier! Backing up a bit and stating how I got from being perplexed/discombobulated/etc….

I was able to check some recording and hear/see that the timing wasn’t really, horribly off, things were just not jiving—everything was in the ballpark but not locking in. What I think really kind of cued everyone in (myself included) to what was happening was when I started running some tunes to a click in rehearsal without telling anyone—we ran one of the tunes that we had been purposely always been taking faster than what the performers had been practicing to. As I was running it, the MD began giving me the “stop rushing” sign; however, I was 100% locked in to the click and at the faster tempo that we agreed upon from the first rehearsal.

I let it be known, which may have caught her off-guard a little—not that I did it in an unprofessional way, but that she was genuinely under the impression that I was rushing and had to re-think it. The director and choreographer for the show were on hand and we did some work on this number and it turns out that it wasn’t that the band was rushing, it was that we had set tempos to the point where the performers were killing themselves trying to hit their marks/steps—the actors/singers could barely keep up, which appeared to be giving the impression that the band was speeding up—I didn’t help things by trying extra hard to nail the tempo and keep it anchored. In fact, I had to kill the click after about 32 bars as everyone had drifted away from me. When we finally talked about it with them, everyone was more than willing to take the tempos down a few notches—major difference when we re-ran the number… settled in wonderfully. I am literally talking a few notches on the click, but it made a huge difference.

Furthermore, we did a little tweaking to some other tempos in other tunes as well—we essentially tried to find where they were the most comfortable dance-wise. None of these tempo tweaks really changed the overall feel of the tunes from a musical perspective—noticeable, but not critical; however, it made a massive difference in how the songs all of a sudden seemed to find the sweet spot—things magically started to have a pocket and I actually could feel locked in with the dancers/singers… just as opening night was upon us! We ran the opening night set and not one dirty or exasperated look was exchanged and best of all, the performers said it felt great. Furthermore, it got a glowing write-up by a notorious hard-ass reviewer.

In general, I think two things important happened to help this issue: 1.) doing the initial locking in with the click and showing how things can sound like they are running away one direction, when they are actually heading another direction kind of was the wake-up call for everyone to take a second look at things; and 2.) having mentally “started over” and re-analyzed the problem and instead of thinking of it as “this tempo is where the tunes sound the best/have the most energy” we instead decided to find out what tempos sat the best and gave the performers the best shot has communicating their energy—it’s amazing how much more energetic a show seems (even if it is a touch slower) when everyone can nail their parts with confidence and not have a drummer trying to drag them around the stage at tempos that are just a few clicks too fast!

The advice about the ebb and flow of the performers was very helpful—while I have done shows with a lot of choreography before, it was never this kind, which is more pop-based staccato parts—this certainly opened my eyes of what “good time” means in these circumstances, as opposed to what I am perhaps too obsessed with on occasion, that being “perfect time.”

Lastly, I do think that some of my time was indeed a little screwy/rusty to begin with being that this was my first gig back from time off. This coupled with the minimal number of rehearsals and the aforementioned difficulties made a difficult gig even more so. Topping it off with some mental games having to do with “Have I really lost my time?” made for a wonderfully agonizing experience for a bit… BUT, things have worked out great.

Great as in, the MD is 100% happy. The director of the show is already talking future work and the theater is throwing my name in the cue to hand off to MDs that work that theater in the future. Therefore, crises averted.

That being said, I’ve still got three more weeks of learning from this gig, so I’m gonna milk this one for all it is worth and try and learn as much as I can from this situation so that I can have these tools sharpened for next time!

Thanks again for all the help, everyone... you all really gave great advice and helped me out of a wee-little jam!

[DeeP_FRieD]

Awesome man!

I'll tell you, after doing many shows myself, that working with the choreographer while that dancers aren't there is paramount, as they will call the MD on bad tempos, and trust me most MD's are piano/vocal cats, and honestly can't be trusted time wise as the spend a lot of their time getting cues off the performers. I honestly think that all shows need to be rehearsed to a click at first and the tempos need to be exactly what the performers are practicing to. Then when you get everyone together they have the same point of reference and comfortable spot.

I'm glad you were very politically agile in this situation as, it really was the MD's fault, as they count it off and you're just trying to stay true to that. When someone counts something off and it begins to pull the natural tendency to move everyone forward is to rush a bit so you create more contrast and it makes it clear to those dragging. This is only human.

I'll tell you that every show I have done is a cluster f*ck till about halfway through the 2nd week just because everyone is still reading/trying to remember choreography... just think the people on the stage can't have a chart, so they can definitely get pinched performance wise with all the mental demands, and the time will suffer first.

The other thing I always noticed too, is that unless it's a really big show, like one that comes into town and hires all the best local cats, a lot of the people in the band, cough cough (horn players), can be pretty low on the local call list, so they're going to go with the flow rather than stick to their guns tempo wise. Add to that the fact that anything that gets anomalous time-wise will be blamed on you no matter who the actual culprit is, and you can definitely get dark on yourself and the situation.

Way to take the mature route.