Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

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Tom Reschke
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Tom Reschke » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:24 am

Very interesting topic, indeed.
I think of it like this,
Most anybody who is a success in pretty much any field is aware of their shortcomings and either strives to overcome them, or else chooses to accept and live with them. I wonder if, say, Steve Gadd would hear Buddy Rich play and run home to work on his singles, OR if he'd just shrug and think, "Well, I'll never be able to be that fast, so I'll just keep doing my own thing."
I'm sure if someone told Scottie Pippen that his game should be more like Michael Jordan's that his response would be something like, "well... duh."
Have you ever seen that Carlock DVD where he got asked about that lick he always plays? I thought to myself, "Yes! Finally, someone fucking said it! Now maybe he'll realize that he overplays the ever living shit out of that lick!"

He basically said straight up that he knows he plays it a lot or too much. He knows. He knows. He knows.

I'd be surprised if Mike Mangini really thought he grooved as hard as Zig or Gadd. It's possible that he might think so, but I doubt it. However, if you told him (hypothetically) that he rushes his fills every so often and that you were someone who's opinion he valued, he might go home and work on that. If some schmuck from anywheresville that he didn't know said the same thing, he might not think twice about it.
You're right that everyone has an opinion, and that no opinion is necessarily right or wrong, BUT...

Let's say I was trying stand up comedy, and my 12 co-workers in accounts receivable came to see me and didn't find me funny whatsoever and said that I should quit, but for some reason for the sake of this example, Louis C.K. was in the audience and he found me absolutely hilarious and told me that I totally have what it takes to be a comedian.

Who am I going to believe?
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Rodge » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:07 am

I think that Greg Bissonnette said too that he uses way too much blushda...
I come from Tain, Vinnie, Omar, Jeff, Fish, Stewart, and many more...
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Pocketplayer » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:18 am

In the end, the truth shall set you free, requires a discerning ear.
This topic is one of general communication. The ultimate feedback is the
recorded tape (listen to Jeff discuss this on the MI visit posted recently).

With the caliber of players we are mentioning, it would seem the discussion
is not on, "Is my time good?" (the tape will reveal if Mangini rushes and then the
producer needs to man-up unless it is self-produced which is part of this new era) seems the discussion is, "Am I playing musically?"

Now we are asking about the aspect of "art."

Steve...when you post a video of something you are working on or a teaching vid,
where is your head at? Are you listening to comments? Just wondering how this
applies to you personally in any favorable way.

We all know five drummers can view a video and all react differently. I like deep
pocket, so I might react one way where someone who likes technique might react
differently. I am very influenced by sound, especially the snare (I am amazed at how
I might like a drummer JUST because of this aspect) where another might not be so
inclined and can overlook sound for something else.

I used to see Virgil all the time at the Spud. Wonderful chap, but he threw everything
plus the kitchen sink in at the end of every song (Olympic athletics) and it got boring to
me. Why Virg, why do you always do that? On record, his playing more controlled, but live,
not so. It wasn't a matter of skill (duh), but taste and musicality for me. The flurry of
double bass at insane speeds just blurred after time over well placed patterns I saw
Joel Taylor do that made me jump out of my seat.

I see Stewart Copeland live and jam and I think, "OK...ummm, OK" but on Police records
he is money...vinyl perfection for me.

Then there is just style. I see Yvette Preyer play I Keep Forgettin' with 8th notes and I cringe
inside. Anathema. Or the late Michael Lee (RIP) play Kashmir with Page and Plant and NOT
hit that accented BD...just a slammin' single note "BOOM"...HOW can that be? How about
covering a hit single and NOT playing the 5/4 fill in Separate Ways or the classic Kunkel fill
at the end of Runnin' on Empty? Matter of taste? I say, "Dude...we need to talk!"
Jeff Porcaro Groove Master
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby BennyAndTheSkins » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:50 am

Pocketplayer wrote:I see Stewart Copeland live and jam and I think, "OK...ummm, OK" but on Police records
he is money...vinyl perfection for me.

I think the very same thing everytime I hear him play live. I think one of his most sublime recordings is "One World" off of Ghost In The Machine........ perfection to me.
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby langmick » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm

The people you are referring to are already at the top.

Weckl needs nothing in terms of critique, nor does Steve Smith. Smith has been on the biggest stages in the world, of all time, and his beats have been on the best TV show...of all times.

But feedback...that really has to come from peers, or no one.

In a place where people are very dependent on the performance of others, there is a feedback path...or things fail badly.

And that can be a band, for sure. The most immediate feedback I've ever seen is through playing life with others. It has to be.

But are we launching rockets? Calling a launch, like the Space X rocket had twice, that's hardcore feedback. Calling a launch with <10s left...that's hard.

As a networking guy, I've been around very smart people, they will let you know immediately if you're an idiot. Much like playing music live.

I don't think the top guys we know would care for hard comments...

But Joey Jordison...maybe.
Julián Fernández
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Julián Fernández » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:54 pm

What about MP? :| :) :D :mrgreen:
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janne jansson
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby janne jansson » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:19 am

I guess that drumstars and and we all can take constructive critique if they/we ask for an honest opinion.
But to give it without being asked makes the truth teller looking kind of rude?
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby amoergosum » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:39 am



Robert Bluman
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Robert Bluman » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:29 pm

Great topic, and no. They do not. Players who are going from gig to gig, tour to tour and session to session, are already giving musicians and artists high quality drumming. They don't care about opinions. The best opinion they can get is from when they record themselves. They all have a sound and vision in mind for themselves and they know how to get it. Unless they have a specific issue to conquer with a specific teacher, like reading, or working a kink out their right hand etc..they're not concerned with critique, especially from local drum fans or part time players. Their peers would never offer up constructive critique. That's rude. " Hey Steve Jordan, I would have liked to hear the chorus push a bit more, and maybe you can work on your chops a bit. That swing portion of your VF video, it's not really swinging in my opinion. Have you checked out Art Blakey? " Can you imagine?

Everyone has an opinion, and the only time an opinion matters is when it's coming from a teacher who has already accomplished what you're trying to accomplish. Otherwise, it means nothing. I don't think Keith Carlock cares that someone thinks he plays a fill too much. Who's to say what's over using? Over using can also be motivic. In the big leagues drumming is not a technical craft, it's an artistic craft. Everyone has their own sound and their own approach. If drumming was craft and there was some type of rule book on how to play correctly, everyone would sound the same.
I would say they don't need constructive feedback, and don't really care for it either.
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Odd-Arne Oseberg
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Odd-Arne Oseberg » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:22 am

These people are artists. Big ones to. They have done at least a few things right.

I sometimes have opinions when my heroes go somewhere else than I'd prefer, but in the end it's none of my business.

I know that when I hit a certain level as a musician, and teacher for that matter, if I ever got negative comments, they came from a place of such low consciousness that it made no sense to even care. Some times I had to e.g. with my previous boss, which is why my Christmas present to her, now two years after the fact is a court order.

But yeah, Vinnie will never sound all that great to me on the Ludwigs he played a short while. Sound is the main ingredient of the package.

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