Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

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Steve Holmes
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Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Steve Holmes » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:12 am

Sometimes I wonder if some guys, when reaching a certain level of drum-stardome, find themselves in a place where they are void of any real feedback, or useful honest constructive criticism (not youtube comments in other words). I would think that would be a consequence to reaching that status. I mean, isn't feedback important no matter how good you are? Who gives the greats real honest feedback?

After Weckl or Smith do gigs or clinics, isn't all they hear "Wow great job man!"? Granted the amount of players that can actually give detailed constructive feedback gets lower the better the artist get. But even that's not 100% true. If Joe-Shmoe garage drummer in Ohio thought someone played a bit busy, that's a valid opinion to his ears. It's on the artist to put it in his/her own context and take into consideration that the listener heard what they heard.

After a while you live in a world where you're constantly being told how great you are, that HAS to have some effect on your self-image, and ( lack of) motive to improve. Weckl always seems to be practicing and trying to get to the next 'era" and style of his playing. A lot of other guys seems to sound the same now as they did 5 years ago. And I mean overall improvement, not playing new material (or singing an eastern counting system while you drum).

I suppose one has to think they need improvement before deciding to improve. Mike Mangini probably think he has a great feel for example so he's not at home listening to Zigaboo and Gadd and trying get his playing a bit more relaxed and in the pocket.

From a fan's perspective there's the whole HOW DARE YOU reaction to even suggesting that certain guys need improvement. People get offended when you criticize their hero. Or they ask for credentials, as if having an opinion was earned by getting good. But as a fan and musician, if you spend the hours listening to the artist, how you can you not notice the weaknesses while tripping on their strengths? This may help the listener-musician improve as well, learning from the weakness of their hero. Seems reasonable. I make it a point to be able to play through bars 4 and 5 without changing a single nuance because I rarely hear Weckl do that (but hear Gadd do it all over the place) .

I'm curious what Gavin or Todd or Ersko might have to offer in addition to whomever else. When's the last time someone offered constructive criticism that you took into consideration? Do you wish you got more of it?
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willyz
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby willyz » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:16 am

Interesting topic, as there are some people (regardless of level) that just CAN'T handle constructive criticism, just as there are some people that feel no need/urge/desire to improve. I'm sure we can all think of name players that of anything, have made little to no progress over the years. Maybe that's by choice (If it ain't broken, don't fix it) or by circumstance (touring schedule, personal life, etc).

Don't know if any of the big dogs will respond to the thread, but it's an interesting subject regardless of profession.
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drumdawg
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby drumdawg » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:55 pm

Wow, great topic. I think we(most people) put our drumming hero's and close friends on pedestals by default. Many times when you think that a show or performance could of been better, it's hard to give it straight to someone who just gave their all, though fell short. I know when i play a show and sucked, the last thing i want to hear at the moment is the truth. Ideally the best time to approach anyone is after the heat of the moment, thus honest opinions rarely get shared. How often do we all get to chat with Weckl 3 days later. Most people keep it to them selves and then rant with safe user-names and such. I'm lucky, because most of my closest friends can't hide the truth and I can read through a "good show bro", even when it wasn't. That kicks me in the ass to be better. I often see big name guys supporting other big name guys and wonder if they give it straight to each other behind closed doors. There's always a fine line between disrespect and constructive criticism that most people steer clear of. It's a shame. I remember going to MI and another student/friend would come check me out. I would ask what he thought, thinking to get phrased but instead was told, "it sounding like crap and clean it up." Though harsh on my ears at the time, it did help me get my sh*t together must faster.
Again great topic, but I don't know if it will ever change.
Peace, Sammy J
ps, i played 6 and a 1/2 bars with out a fill the other day :)
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Paul Marangoni
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Paul Marangoni » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:32 pm

If you've been playing long enough, and have had your share of successes and failures, you get to a point where no one needs to tell you when you've played well, or missed the mark. It is your own opinion, which is often far more critical than anyone else's, that matters.

Personally, I know what I need to work on, beyond what I "want" to work on; I know what my strengths are (or strength, singular, is), and I am capable of analyzing my playing in real time, and especially during playback.

Beyond that, everyone has a few close friends who will always tell them the truth about their playing, if that opinion is solicited.
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AllenS
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby AllenS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:45 pm

I know that Joe Morello (when he was still alive, of course...:( ) was pretty frank/blunt about technical shortcomings when he saw them in what anybody would consider "world-class" players. Same could have been said about Tony Williams and Buddy Rich...

Maybe those earlier generations of jazz drummers were a bit more brutally honest about their evaluations of other players, and what they liked and disliked? *shrug*

As far as big name players go....I think the reaction for a lot of people is either (a) the starstruck fan who is simply in awe of him (or her) and is consequently, too biased to offer substantive feedback, or (b) is the insecure, ego-driven person who dismisses the player outright
(See: far too many YouTube comments. :| )

It's difficult, because constructive feedback takes effort, thought, applying existing knowledge, tact, and in this case, overcoming the added hurdles of "hero worship." I can't imagine how Vinnie must feel whenever he walks into a room full of other drummers...
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Kurtis » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:03 pm

Honest Constructive Feedback? Good luck. It would be fun to tell Wek you need to stop playing a fill/embellishment every other bar. And his reaction!!!!11111

Cool topic. Credibility versus credibility. Who are you? I'm just Joe Shmoe - You overplay at times. To many fills. Your hand technique creeps me out. Your drums suck but your awesome.

Who would have the balls to tell a pro - yo, get a grip.

I would love to have a one on one with Neil Peart and show him how to swing. I mean come on. It's not hard at all. 62 and can't swing after how many years playing. Guy studies with Freddy and Peter and still can't loosen up and swing a quarter note. Perplexing. If you can hear it and feel it how hard can it be to execute it? It happens I guess. Oh shit. I'm on a soap box. Let me step off.
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Pocketplayer
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Pocketplayer » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:42 pm

Wondering what triggered this thread Steve?

Ironic timing...I am dealing with this exact topic in another context!

I think today, more than ever, feedback is available...the question is,
do they (we) listen to it? This is usually after the product (video) is
completed, but during the process...yes, that is the producers role
or the artist a drummer is serving.

Sidebar, but related...
I always felt the early and not so early drum videos were horribly produced.
They were marketed to drummers, BUT, so much of the editing was not
for drummers...half the video was of the guitarist or other musicians or some
lame video technique. SHOW ME THE DRUMMER!

HOW could this be marketed for drummer X when more than likely, the entire
sales is from his fan base and NOT focus on his ghost notes or fills during the
"jam times"?

Who wasn't mentioning THAT elephant in the room?
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nomsgmusic
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby nomsgmusic » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:53 pm

Interesting topic Steve. I think many established people in any field don't get enough quality feedback. But from my experience, if they are interested in career longevity, they appreciate criticism IF they get it from someone who they respect. Hell, I don't think most people (in general) get enough "real criticism." I blame a lot of it partially on the "everybody wins" politically correct, "suck up," environment that we live in today, but that is a bit of a different topic.

I have begun several interviews (or conversations) with "name" guys with (something like) "Look, I don't really dig your band's music, but I respect your skills as a drummer...." Sometimes, I have started by telling someone that (honestly) I've never really checked them out. The reply (to either comment) was always, "Cool, no prob!"

I also think that overly gushing terms like "great" are WAAAAY too overused in today's world. People need to better express their opinions (better vocabulary) when talking to other intelligent people. I also think that (in general) all of the "hero worship" compliments tend to go in one ear and out the other (while still being appreciated!) with someone who has received quality praise from his (or her) TRUE peers.

I can only speak for myself, but I have given Steve (Smith,) Weckl, Vinnie, and other wonderful drummers who I have a relationship with (and deeply respect,) truthful and honest opinions when I was asked, I think they all appreciated it. Because firstly, I was asked, and my "opinions" were (usually) solicited, and the delivery (ie. personal skills) DO matter! NO, I am NOT putting myself on any of their "levels." If you can't take honest (well presented) solicited criticism or opinions, you have no chance of making a living in this (or many other) businesses. And the guys that we are referencing here ARE successful (i.e. making a living) artists!

Many guys here know about the relationship Steve and I have. We have worked together on many projects! That working relationship has always included, constructive criticism that has gone both ways. And (outside of our working relationship) he has always returned the favor (of brutal honesty) when I have asked him for "help" (drumming or otherwise.) And I have been present to hear Steve gladly receive detailed criticism.

There is another part of this question regarding the subject of being an active student (of anything.) In this case, brutal honesty is EXACTLY why I believe many well known and respected (as well as lesser known) drummers have sought out Freddie Gruber (and in NYC Michael Carvin and John Riley.) I have had the good fortune of being with Freddie and a few of his "most popular" students away from the masses, and he was always brutally honest. He was never afraid to tell guys that they weren't "that good." Sometimes it was delivered in a humorous manner, but the intention was obvious.

I always tell people the story when an old (valued) teacher of mine told me how much (on that day) I sucked. I think part of it was a test... Let's see what this guy can take. Or... Let's see how much he really wants to learn, or if he just wants to be "stroked." I think this is a real problem today, most people just want to be stroked. I think Freddie employed this very same technique. (There was much more to Freddie than this, but I think this was an important aspect of his teaching "style.")

As a side note to the subject of criticism, I'll say this. While I was at William Paterson, there was a process called "Dialog Day." This was when the student groups performed a tune in front of the entire faculty, and all of the other students. Then, it was time (for everyone faculty, students, and guests) to criticize in an open and brutally honest forum. And you had to stay on stage and listen to EVERYONE. Rufus Reid would act as the "moderator," but it could (and would) often get VERY intense. There were always some students that quit after their first "D Day." I don't know if t's still done, or if any other schools did it, but it was a VERY educational tool that was developed and used to great measure!

I think ANY great artist today, HAS to be able to take criticism, and give it to others (to better get what they need, artistically.) I saw Steven Speilberg talk wonderfully about this process once on "Inside The Actors Studio." Granted, many people have their own individual system of "delivery," and sometimes it can be quite cryptic. But if you know how to LISTEN, and think, you can decipher what is being said. Then it's up to YOU, and what you do with that information.

I know it sounds like "grandma" advice, but honesty is the only way to build any type of relationship, with yourself or with others. And proper communication skills are essential! to teaching, learning, and improving.

MSG

PS. I think Vinnie and I talked about this same subject a bit in our PAS interview posted on his website.
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Julián Fernández
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Julián Fernández » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:39 am

Reminded me to this...

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Matthijs Ament
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Re: Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

Postby Matthijs Ament » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:54 am

Thanks Mark, very inspiring!

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