Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?

[Steve Holmes]

Good stuff guys.
I think it's interesting that we all have our own "version" of how things are, and as a result, make statements based on that "version", as if it were true (myself included).

Why stop trying to improve? Because you got REALLY REALLY good? Granted it's ALL subjective, and your lay of the land is SOLEY based on how well you see the landscape. A lot of these guys see the whole landscape. This kind of leads me to another observation, but I think I will start another topic for it.

I do agree that self-criticism is probably the best and a lot of these guys examine their performances with a comb trying to iron out the kinks.

It is worth mentioning that the very idea of criticizing certain guys is still very much taboo, and I'm questioning that. It's very possible that even the most ignorant of feedback could lead me to consider something that I would have never have thought of otherwise. Like I said, its on the artist to put it in perspective. Someone mentioned taking a pro's criticism over many other non-pro opinions, and that's valid for sure. But if someone is in the exact demographic/audience for your intended work than I'm interested in that person's feedback to an extent. Again, it's on me to put it in context within what I think is right/wrong good/bad.

I'm just saying it's better to be open than closed off I suppose. And as an artist, living in a world where everyone tells you how great you is limiting.

Weckl told me that he met Freddy after a gig with Stern (years ago obviously). Freddy told him that he noticed him struggling at certain points in the night, and he was correct. So Dave thought he might be on to something in terms of his ability to observe and notice potential weak points in the chain. .

[bstocky]

but he also thought "who is this crazy old guy?!". Later Dave got to know who Freddie was/is and respected his criticism.

I remember some drunk dude telling me I looked bored on a gig and I looked like I didn't want to be there. I was ready to hit the guy for basically being a drunk and insulting me but he was right! I WAS bored and I didn't want to be there.

I've also commented on this forum that some guys should just stop playing certain licks, like a comedian that does a tour and then doesn't do those jokes again or at least waits a few years before bringing out the classics. I'd LOVE to hear Gavin's and Benny's, Todd's, etc thoughts on that. Do they get sick of playing their licks or feel forced to play them for the audience?

Also, I said before it drives me crazy when guys play an 8th note rock groove then play triplets then modulate to a new feel. Todd does that, Steve Smith does that, amateurs do that. The greats don't do that. They just go BAMMM! and suddenly everything is different. Why does Todd do that? Does he have to take the baby steps to get from A to B or does he do that for the audience so we understand the transition? Todd is here so maybe he'll see this.

[Pocketplayer]

Thanks Steve...

I just got back from a weekend with a men's group called, New Warriors.
http://losangeles.mkp.org/new-warrior-t ... intensive/

Talk about looking at your "shadows" and then receiving feedback if open!

In a real life context, I was with a group of men and one of the group leaders asked,
"Who do you trust the most in your group after spending a day with them?"
"Who do you trust the least?"

...then go face-to-face and share why.

THAT is feedback! Also freeing as well to hear what people REALLY feel about you.
Humbling to say the least, but also reflective more of who they were as well and the
shadows they carry triggered in my personality.

I felt this group directly fitting to this topic hence the site addy for anyone interested
in exploring. Never experienced anything like this group before in my life.

In the end, it is all about growth and truth...and not staying stuck in self and in safety,
eventually causing a notorious circle of repetition.

[Lucas Ives]

My observational experience has been that, yes, the "big name guys" are quite open to and take honest, constructive criticism ... and that it's not actually that different than someone in any other walk of life: you take pointers from those whose opinion you respect, "player" or not.

But fans at gigs tend not to pick their spots well ... there's an inherent asymmetry in the power dynamic at the stage door after the show, and folks tend to want to use it as a sycophantic worship zone or a soapbox about whatever musical chip is on their shoulder.

I think it's a different discussion as to who rests on their laurels or not ... again, I don't find that to be any different than other discipline. Everyone knows someone in their office who phones it in vs. the veteran who is always killing it.

[Matus]

IMO, it depends on what specific area you're being criticised about and who and how he does it. True life examples I've had:

1) Webzine review of a concert. Journalist A says the previous drummer in my band played more intricate and unexpected fills. False, as he always played the same lick over and over, not to mention I learned all his parts and made them busier at times. I deem it as BS and move on.
2) Random fan says the new CD's drum parts are way too simple. I also deem it as BS because it contains fills in 7 over 6, rhythm modulation, layers and whatnot.
3) My former teacher says ANYTHING about my swing, sound or playing. I listen and go practice real hard.
4) My vocalist, after the first show in the tour, tells me about the drum solo. He points out a few things that might work better for the audience, like it's too technical and has no breaks to breathe/cheer. Offer them something they can relate to. He's got far more feel for that than me, so I take the advice and change a few things. Worked perfectly.
5) A sound engineer I respect says something about my snare sound. I appreciate the insight and proceed to debate the subject to end up somewhere in between. Snare sound ends up being perfect for me and him.
6) Two Dream Theater shows in a row. I go to m&g after the show and tell Jordan R that the first row had worse sound. He replies something like "you can go to the back for better sound, baby", to which I replied "or you could use a front fill". He was like "you've got a point" and yeah, the following night we did have a front fill.

[Cymbalfeltfetishist]

It probably differs from drummer to drummer. It varies as much as personalities vary.

Some guys can take constructive criticism, some guys can't. Some guys "go inside" and are self aware of their shortcomings and change them, some guys look for and seek advice.

I would argue the guys that can, actually get better and are not so stagnant.

I agree with someone that said here that the high level drummer probably takes advice from their peers more than everybody else. Let's face it, I'd rather hear Smith, Chambers, Weckl and Gadd tell me that my left hand needs work, rather some youtube comment or some smartass that wants to knock me down a couple pegs because I am at a higher level then they are (btw, Im not saying I'm at the level those guys are, I'm not...I might not even be at the level the youtube guy is!!) How do you know people are sincere? It's a matter of trust..

I know my personality would feel like this. If I was a high level drummer, I know what I'm doing and how I got there. I know I put in a lot of time to get where I was. I would be constantly trying to improve - the way I see fit, noone else...ultimately it comes down to me and where I want to go and how I want to improve. This is what I do, I play drums and I play at a high level. I'm an expert and I feel like I know a thing or two about this. I am a student of the drumkit and because I know I am, I know there isnt enough time in a lifetime to master everything. There is always something to learn. I would talk to guys that are my peers - guys who are better than me and do something I don't do...and pick their brains - or observe. If my best friend Vince C gave me a criticism, I would listen to him and what he had to tell me. Same thing with all my other friends, Chick Corea, Stevie Gadd, Herbie Hancock, Mike Landeau, ALL my buddies and best friends....lol. I would ignore the negative stuff. That doesn't get me anywhere at all whatsoever. Yes, some comments get through and bother me, but I wouldnt let it eat me up inside. I am where I am at for a reason. (I am naming famous guys of course, but I would also listen to trusted friends as well)

That's how I would act if I were one of those drummers. To sum up yes, high level guys can accept cristicism, but it depends where it's coming from. Has to be from a trusted source.

[Odd-Arne Oseberg]

Anyone who reaches a high level and continues to grow do so because they are humble and constantly open to new things. It's sort of a pre-requisite.

Some people prefer to pull other people down to feel good about themselves instead of getting inspired to improve themselves. In this day and age, where so much is so shallow and artificial, this gets more and more prevalent.

Someone will quite often talk about the concept I just did, but completely twist it around.

Comments from weekend warriors who know three chords and mainly in it for beer and p**** or someone who has played in a local orchetra and is uncomfortable with any key outside of Bb is not someone I'd listen to. I've met so many people of that ilk, that I have even designed my life to avoid them.

People who know their own skills and experience are usually quite respectful whatever they express, because they usually see a bigger picture. Even if they don't they're aware that it's there.

I have no problem understanding some artists attitudes if they'd had to deal with similar stuff their whole life. It's annoying, exhausting and serves absolutely no purpose at all.

[Morgenthaler]

I hate to toot my own horn but I do take some pride in being in a position where I can give honest, constructive feedback to one of the world's most exciting,
creative and technically proficient drummers, you-know-who.

Here is how he puts it: http://morgenthaler.tumblr.com/anbefalinger

Obviously, I don't lecture him about technical advancements or rudimental proficiency. He's got that down, pretty solid.
But I do give him feedback on a ton of other stuff, related to the business. Not least the online-side of things, as you'd have guessed.

And I do voice my opinion about production, choices in who he works with etc. etc. from the point of view of whether or
not it makes sense to position himself in that setting etc. I felt that Ring of Fire, Seven The Hardway, FreakHouse and possibly a few other projects, simply didn't by any reasonable measure live up to his performance standards and that his effort on those projects were lost in production or in the poor performance by the other players. And I told him. And he does listen to that kind of critique.

When it comes to the choices he makes on the spot in a live performance I hesitate to voice my opinion. He is who he is because of all the choices he
has made over a 50 year period of performing live on stage. There might be elements that re-occur as points where he gets critiqued, like violent
thrashing endings to live songs, a heavy use of odd-times over 4/4, meter-changes and various other things. Those are debated again and again, not least here
on HOD, but as they are a big part of his persona, they are contributing one way or another to the whole picture of who he is as an artist.

I'd love for Weckl to have a bit stronger backbeat and not fill out every 32nd note, I'd love for Simon to hit his hi-hat a different way, for Bissonette to lay off the blushda for the next 10 years, for Vinnie to stop crashing his ride way too often etc. etc. etc. but all those things are just elements of great players, and who am I
to request they follow MY taste when they are doing just fine with what they do?

Great topic, Steve. I enjoy reading people's thoughts on this.

[willyz]

I think there's definitely an art to actually GIVING feedback too. I'm less likely to listen to someone that can't be constructive with their thoughts & opinions. I'm also more likely to listen to someone I trust and/or admire. That's all probably a given, but I'm not sure that in today's age of constant & immediate contact to everything, that people really think about what they say/comment on before they actually voice their thoughts.

Outside of drumming & music, I'm currently dealing with a superior with very poor communication skills. Doesn't know how to give or receive feedback or thoughts in any sort of constructive manor. Although again, like music, I'm more likely to really listen to someone I respect and can communicate effectively with.

[Pocketplayer]

One pattern emerges here...relationship. We tend to trust those we know and respect.
This can be good and bad. I think in the past, there was more surprise by an artist.

Imagine Gadd tinkering with the 50 Ways groove...no big deal, just playing around
between takes and Paul Simon says, "I kinda like that" and Steve works it into a groove.
Do you really think he knew it would land so strong with drummers in particular and be
copied and mimicked for decades?

Gadd's vocabulary is what he knows. Porcaro starting so many songs the same way is what
he knows. Virg's vocabulary what he knows. My vocabulary what I know. Do we change
it because someone doesn't care for it?

Do big name guys get honest constructive feedback?
I guess I ask now what "constructive" feedback is? Time is constructive feedback, but that also
depends on the song and what the feel is the artist or songwriter wants. Sometimes imperfect
time works better. Space and dynamics is constructive feedback. Orchestration of parts
constructive feedback.

When you hire Dave or Vinnie or...you know what you're getting. So, what then determines
constructive feedback?

Would be interesting (to me) if drummers here share feedback they have received from others
and share their reaction. What was constructive and what did you dismiss as not being
constructive? How did this challenge your confidence? Was it worth fighting over if it came
from a band member or artist paying you? Other?