Ali Jackson thread

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bored at work
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby bored at work » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:19 pm

I think I may have to make reaction video to this reaction video.

This man is an asshole!
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willyz
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby willyz » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:35 pm

This notion of offense being taken from this dude stating his opinion is ridiculous.

It's his opinion. Can he play what Vinnie plays? Who cares!

Vinnie doesn't need a bunch of nerds to defend him. I'm with Steve on this one- you may not like what Ali said, but it's his words that he's putting out there.
Got Blushda?
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beat hit
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby beat hit » Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:26 pm

Of course we won't like ALL of what Vinnie plays, that's not the point.

The dude is being opportunistic, using Vinnie's turf to drive traffic. He has the right to do what he wants, but he's strategy is sneaky. How he addresses Vinnie in the video is disrespectful and arrogant.

How many cats out there "publicly" share similar negative opinions on someone else's art choices?
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nomsgmusic
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby nomsgmusic » Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:15 pm

I just read this entire thread, and I bought this record.

Firstly, I hope some of you guys have thicker skin on your own gigs than you do in this situation.

Someone asked, "How many cats out there publicly share similar negatives on someone else's art choices?"

Answer. Have you ever read Down Beat's Blindfold Tests? They are a long standing tradition in the jazz world, and they are VERY EDUCATIONAL!

Ali might come off a little arrogant, and maybe he isn't communicating his thoughts in a politically correct way, that's fine with me, he can back it up! He's a world class musician (and I'll tell you a secret, MANY world class musicians are arrogant and aren't great communicators.) If you can't deal with that, you better get comfortable with the phrase "Do you want fries with that?"

I will agree with him on the thought that this recording could have strongly benefitted from a good jazz producer, many of today's recordings could!!!!!

The above posted video doesn't show much of Ali's drumming, check this out!



How about a discussion of his thoughts, instead of the delivery? I've worked with-for many world class musicians with an awful delivery, that doesn't mean what they say isn't valid. Let's discuss music and drumming, not "strategy," "clicks," and "third person hurt feelings."

Has anyone ever even entertained the idea that Vinnie might actually even agree with some of what Ali said.
NO ONE is bigger than the music!

From Vinnie's website:

Question: What happens when the outside world interferes and a producer says, "I'm sorry, it's just not working. We're going to get someone else"?

VC: How you assimilate those circumstances depends on where you're at in the evolution of your career. Maybe you are trying to impose something on a situation where it doesn’t belong. In that case, it has nothing to do with whether or not you're good enough to do the gig. Maybe both parties were correct in the situation, but you just weren’t communicating. Or maybe the whole band wasn't on exactly the same musical page...

As a musician, you have to be able to make an honest assessment of your own working skills. Some people never do, and they fall by the wayside and wonder why people just don't want to work with them. Or they improve on only one specific level. But that doesn't mean that it will translate into the real world, because as a musician they’re too insular and too angry.


(end of quote)

Here's another news flash. Vinnie Colaiuta has been fired, replaced, and not offered MANY gigs throughout his career. And so has Ali Jackson. EVERYONE HAS!!!! BOTH are wonderful musicians and drummers, enough fundamentalist thinking!

MSG
[url][/url]bluejayrecords.com/drumatic
[url][/url]vicfirth.com/artists/mark_griffith.html
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby Odd-Arne Oseberg » Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:14 pm

No. He obviously used Vinnie's name for clicks and that's not poor communication. That's being a vamp and personally I don't agree with his narrow minded opinion at all.

He has the right to behave the way he wants and must the accept the consequenes of that behaviour.

He's not just being arrogant. He's talking about art and saying that there's just one way to do things. Not in his opinion, but that there is just one way. He must have been living under a rock. That's not educational. That's just pure stupidity. I'll take my own teaching skills over that cat's any day. This actually has nothing to do with Vinnie. We could even remove him from the discussion. It's all about Ali.

The question is really if you or Ali have a thick enough skin to handle that opinion.

I've dealt with enough people like this and the damage they do to students. They represent little to no value as educators.

What you did prove with your post is that Vinnie represents humility and professionalism and Ali does not.

I wouldn't use the term "politically correct" here as it has no relevance. That's not the issue.
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Old Pit Guy
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby Old Pit Guy » Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:54 am

One thing is for sure, there has come a foolish consistency in threads involving musical role models if for nothing else than the posters taking a long-honored defensive posture over opinions not flattering of heroes are now the posters being schooled for having those opinions. Ralph Waldo FTW.
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beat hit
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby beat hit » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:23 am

MSG
The Downbeat Blindfold Test is a fair reminder. Haven't read them in a while. But that's a different context. Even then, if the feedback is delivered with arrogance & disrespect, the dude sharing can swing all day long, I ain't interested in There are many positive voices to pay attention to out there.

Of course nobody's above reproach musically, art is subjective though. I am 100% convinced Vinnie welcomes respectful constructive feedback. Yet being in his sixties, he must be comfortable in his skin by now. The jazz police won't always approve, but so what. Again, this dude's approach is opportunistic and his delivery disrespectful, not my cup of tea.

"enough fundamentalist thinking!". The irony here is that's exactly what this dude's communicating. IE: a "fundamentalist" jazz police thinking.
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby DeeP_FRieD » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:19 pm

Steve Holmes wrote:LOL at "I think if you put it on in the background when the neighbors came over for dinner no one would object to it."

It's Ok to not like things. He presents his opinion in a respectable context, which is super important.

I actually agree with the overall point of playing simple swinging time FIRST, establish the intention FIRST, then introducing some more notes works better because there's now context for the extra notes. It's has a starting place and progresses.

The bigger you become as a musician, the less folks will call you out. It has to be OK to criticize when done respectfully.

It's possible they did several takes of these tunes and maybe VInnie played simpler on one and the leader preferred the busier stuff. We don't know. I asked Mark Isham myself at the Baked Potato PASADENA on a gig with John and Vinnie mid-late 90's. I asked about swing and how busy playing affects it. He told me he hired Vinnie because he wanted Vinnie's playing.
Can't argue with that.

Also the better one gets at their craft, the more ability to see the positives AND negatives in a performance. Rodge you're at the level where you see it all I think. Surely there's recordings of Vinnie that you may not dig? For me it's most of his swing stuff actually. You're going to tell me the Waldman stuff SWINGS? You don't make the same faces when listening to the Waldman stuff as when you list to TAIN swinging! :o


Nailed it.

Ali is making stylistic critiques, of which I mostly agree with.
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Old Pit Guy
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Re: Ali Jackson thread

Postby Old Pit Guy » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:32 am

I also agree, somewhat, with the critique. But I've been "stylistically" critical of Vinnie Colaiuta's choices as an accompanist before. And it was never well received. I may be officially elderly but my memory is pretty damn good. Real good, in fact.

Anyway, it's perfectly natural for opinions to change; sensibilities evolve with maturity and life experience. But it might feel abrupt to some to switch everything to a style argument when the primary contention is the disrespect Jackson exhibited but not referring to the person being critiqued by name while the bandmates were. You don't refer to a well known artist at the top of his profession as "the drummer" throughout a video critique without it being noticed. Imagine a vocalist critiquing a Bowie cut and referring to him as "the singer"

It doesn't serve to soften the opinions, so why do it? if anything, it adds a dismissive quality to his analysis. Agreeing with Jackson's "stylistic" opinion doesn't change any of that.

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