Another Trad. Question

[gretsch-o-rama]

I know there's some traditional grip motherfuckers on this board so I'm seeking some advice as I don't live close to any trad. teachers... Do I want to be squeezing trad. with my thumb to "lock it in the pocket"? Or do i want to have my thumb more forward a la Steve Holmes?

[YamahaPlayer]

Both examples you address, and many others, all fall within the realm of "Trad Grip". That is to say, player preference.

I would suggest spending time working on the various individual thumb, finger and overall technique variations to find what works best for your hands, playing style and vibe.

[Sam]

One thing that is getting to me a little bit is the idea of getting control with the top two fingers. In one video it was described as a process of taking the motion of dribbling the stick with index and middle finger (with the palm downturned) and gradually bringing it around in to the cradle position, which, to me, didn't make any sense at all. The motion of dribbling the stick like that is an up-down tapping motion which works in conjuction with rebound and when the hand is turned upright (in to a handshake position) it's doesn't translate at all ie. the stick is just moving horizontally through thin air then. I'm sure there's fine points i'm missing here, but it is a little bewildering, and doesn't seem to be a simple case of turning your hand sideways and bob's your uncle. So far i've found the only way to get my head around trad is to frequently switch over to it and get used to it, and hopeful be analytical enough to find sweet spots and basically let nature take it's course/let the stick do the work.

And also - a question to you trad folk - the point that Tony and Jojo both made about how it's about variety, and how trad tends to cause you to take yourself by surprise more often (paraphrasing them there*).......do you find that to be true? Or is it possibly more so a case that this is a result of switching between grips? ie. going to play a phrase that you would normally play with a different makes you articulate the phrase slighty differently?

Steve - PLEEEEAAASSE do a trad grip video.

[Don Worth]

The stick should just sit in the pocket between thumb and first finger. If you open your hand and lay the stick in the pocket and support the stick with your ring finger, then lay your first finger over the stick and that with laying your thumb down onto your first finger should lock the stick into place. It is not a locked down position at all since the stick needs to pivot in the pocket. I hope this might help. Also, your hand should be cupped and rotate the forearm and not just flip the wrist out.

Don

[YamahaPlayer]

And also - a question to you trad folk - the point that Tony and Jojo both made about how it's about variety, and how trad tends to cause you to take yourself by surprise more often (paraphrasing them there*).......do you find that to be true? Or is it possibly more so a case that this is a result of switching between grips? ie. going to play a phrase that you would normally play with a different makes you articulate the phrase slighty differently?

Yes and No.

There's a very cool thing with our brains, the rhythmic phrases we learn are not entirely stipulated on the specific muscle memory of the grip. In other words, you can "learn" rhythm outside of gripping the stick. Someone who practices polyrhythms on his steering wheel against his blinker for instance.

Because of that, it means that changing grips is changing an element that affects the rhythm itself, independent of the rhythm knowledge - both emotionally and physically. The touch of the notes will be different, as the feel and tone of the stick, while at the same time the mind is still "playing" the rhythmic expression.

What you start to see is the combination of the mind knowing what it wants to play rhythmically and the additional outside influences of the tactile feel from the hands. Combine that with the additional differences in muscle memory, and you have an interesting phenomenon.

How each person responds to that phenomenon is as personal as the person. Some see it as very emotional, some translate it as to "more control", etc...

Additionally you have the entire "traditional" aspect, in that very much people feel an emotional charge to wanting to play with the left hand grip in such a manor - tradition, influences, hero's, etc all play into that.

Now of course, playing with the left hand "trad" is purely arbitrary. Based on the primitive way snare drums were slung, and should be noted, that not everyone worn them off the left shoulder. There was plenty of "trad" going on on the right hand.
Even modern day players use "trad" on their right hands, sometimes both hands - Billy Cobham for instance.


I personally enjoy the difference in "feeling" and the emotions from playing that both grips provide. While I primarily play matched, I switch to Trad at whim. A great deal of it for me is how I was taught from the get go (matched), playing heavier music - I know it's possible to play trad, but the additional effort to work with it at this point isn't worth it for me.
And just frankly, while it's cool and tradition - it's not exactly the most efficient way to play drum set. (It's in fact very inefficient.) Same with crossing over to the hi-hats - but it's the tradition, and most people still are taught that way today.

Just my thoughts + a little study into the subject.

It's player preference - because just flat out in the end, listening to a recording, not a soul on earth would know what grip you used.

[Cymbalfeltfetishist]

Yes, I wouldn't "grip" it with your thumb whatsoever if you are using rebound. Thumb and fingers should stay as relaxed as possible with the stick sitting in the pocket. Generally speaking, if you are not using rebound you would tend to "squeeze" the stick with your thumb to muscle through the notes you are playing.

The answer Sam's question, I've even heard Thomas Lang talk about traditional grip makes you "think differently" about phrasing etc etc and makes the neurons in your brain fire differently etc etc. I dunno...seems a little beyond me and a little hocus-pocus-y. No disrespect to those masters that think that way. I just think if you are going to play a phrase you have to play the phrase...no matter how you are holding the stick. The adjustments are more physical rather than mental...and this might not even matter at all depending how developed you are with a particular grip. For example, if you don't play traditional a lot and don't have all the mechanics down-pat, then yeah, you are going to be thinking about that fill all right, because it's uncomfortable. The player that has more or less mastered a grip is just going to play the phrase that's in his head with no other physical barriers to get in his way. The phrase doesn't have anything to do with the grip, your brain and creativity has to do with the phrase.

Sam you also mentioned the example of turning the wrist and forearem over to do the bounce thing like I've seen Weckl do etc to develop finger control. Then you mentioned to keep trying traditional grip and "let nature take its course". The thing I would say about that is, traditional grip take a lot more time to develop. I believe you have to go through a litany of different excercises and techniques to find a comfortable way to move the sticks...it just takes time. I don't think its very natural at all to play that way and be successful at it. I saw Weckl do that thing and thought "no frappin way I can do that"....eh, but over time and all kinds of development excercises later, I could do it. I switched from matched to traditional so I had to learn from scratch and it really took a while....but I decided to put in the time, and to me, it was worth it. I play trad 98% of the time now (actually the last 15 years!) If I didn't commit and just gave up when I did my first tom fill with traditional (hitting all my knuckles along the way and the stick flying out of my hand), I would have never been where I am now with the grip.

[cjbdrm]

I know there's some traditional grip motherfuckers on this board so I'm seeking some advice as I don't live close to any trad. teachers... Do I want to be squeezing trad. with my thumb to "lock it in the pocket"? Or do i want to have my thumb more forward a la Steve Holmes?

You had me at motherfuckers

[YamahaPlayer]

I switched from matched to traditional so I had to learn from scratch and it really took a while....but I decided to put in the time, and to me, it was worth it. I play trad 98% of the time now (actually the last 15 years!) If I didn't commit and just gave up when I did my first tom fill with traditional (hitting all my knuckles along the way and the stick flying out of my hand), I would have never been where I am now with the grip.

Now that's where, the question of... how much was gained? Should be asked.

If the same time had been spent furthering development of (whatever grip you started with) VS relearning "from scratch" as you put it, where would you be. The fairly obvious answer seems to be, that had you continued to develop your playing you'd be that much farther then having started over.

"I would have never been where I am now with the grip."

And THAT is the key. The difference of emphasis. It's switched from 'what am I playing' to 'how do i look playing it'. (It's already been established that it's a visual aspect, it's the sound of the notes that matters.)

Which starts to border into the whole, should I do stick tricks or not? Realm....

But to the OP, it's of course, as you can see, very individual. You can "grip" with the thumb for sure (It's impossible to play and NOT use the rebound). Look at Virg's grip, that's tight as tight can be. Weckl profusely states the thumb should never come out of contact with the index finger - yet Vinnie's hand opens up ALL the time...

I do clinics for marching, and that's a WHOLE different ball park of "trad" grip.

[Sam]

Great responses guys

It's been a definite dilemma for me when it comes to learning trad as to whether the time would be better spent learning new phrases and generally developing weak areas in my playing......which i think, ultimately, is waaaaaay more important. Still though, think i'll crack on with it and practise it where and when i can.