Seeking Justice for Musicians in Jazz Clubs

[jeff]

You don't know shit about me.

Actually I know many things about you, but this in particular -

You can "play for the joy of playing" in your basement or rehearsal room. The only reason bands perform and don't demand payment is because they are being rewarded in a different way: by having their ego stroked.

That is the statement of someone who does not know the joy of playing live music. Maybe you lost it or have grown disenchanted with playing music. But either way, that is a very telling statement for any musician to make.

It is tantamount to saying "I will only play for other people if I'm paid" - which is the completely wrong attitude about music. It's also a VERY stupid attitude to have about anything that involves networking. Some of the highest paying gigs I've got resulted directly from taking other gigs that didn't pay or paid very little, a circumstance that is very common in the music business.


Getting paid to play is awesome, but believe it or not most musicians across the world don't make a dime playing music.

It's like the difference between the Major's and Minor's. In one case you have people who are talented, but it's all about the money. In the other case you have people who are very talented, who don't make much at all, and it's about the love of the game.

If you have a very small group of people who believe they can and should demand particular payment for playing and you have a much larger group of people who will gladly play out of the joy of it and take payment as a secondary issue... guess which group is going to get crushed?

And here you are, complaining that group A is not getting as much money anymore because group B is knocking them out. Not much of a mystery why and complaining about it doesn't change the circumstances that created it.

I had to register after seeing this thread. I couldn't feel more strongly that this opinion is what kills the musician's lifestyle. It's almost sickening (and certainly disheartening) to read.

Playing music out, in a venue, should be rewarded. It's a hell of a lot of work, time and benefit to an establishment, for a band to come in, setup and play all night. Believe it or not, I "kind of" get this attitude.. as it was how I felt before I spent years and years playing out, every weekend. It seems right when you're outside looking in but it's an attitude that you quickly feel differently about when playing out frequently.. not because you lose your love of playing music, but because you get smart. Of course we all do the benefits and occasional show just for fun, but as a general rule, if you're not expecting and demanding payment on a regular basis (and you're playing out regularly), you're not only cheating yourself, you're cheating all musicians everywhere and shame on you for that.

Even if "believe it or not most musicians across the world don't make a dime playing music" was true, it makes no difference in your argument. This somehow makes it right??! But seriously.. how many professioinal bands have you seen that let you in free? And the fact that the group that wants to be paid will be "crushed" is simply ridiculous in trying to explain that musicians shouldn't care about getting paid. Free service will crush paid service? News flash.. we all learned that in about the first grade. The fact remains, these musicians should be compensated. Playing for free is a stroke to the ego (rather you try to pass that off as the "love of music" or not) and that's why guys do it. We all get that. The guys who do it for free and cite "the love of music" kill it for everyone. How many other professions do you know of that "do it for free" because they love their craft? People should love their craft.. that's why they endlessly practice it and it's all the more reason to get paid for it.

I've played hundreds and hundreds of gigs over the years and you learn that the club owner views your performance strictly from a business perspective. Sadly, most clubs will try to low-ball you into nothing if they can get away with it. Should the musician.. who has put thousands and thousands of hours into his/her craft, just accept zero payment for playing out every night for the "love of the music"? Should the business get 100% of the benefit for a band that has thousands of hours invested in practice, equipment that costs a small fortune (and is always needing replaced), loading equipment up every night, setting up and tearing down when playing out (hours of work that you don't get compensated for), and provides the entertainment and often the sole reason for clientele hanging out there all evening? Hogwash. It's a very mis-guided and WRONG approach. It's a young musicians mindset (as far as playing out in a live band atmosphere). The more you play out (the more professional your business "band" becomes), the more you realize that the love of the music has nothing to do with the paycheck you deserve at the end of the night. Judging by the statements you made, you certainly seem to be someone who drums on the occasional jam night and not someone who plays out professionally and/or regularly.

Not getting paid in a band means the club owner cares about his/her business and doesn't give a crap about yours.. or your time. They love finding the band who will do it over and over again "for the joy of playing live music" and I can assure you that they're laughing, with your money in their hand, all the way to the bank. I can also assure you that you're number is on speed dial on the club owner's iphone, with the label of "Sucker" right next to it.

[DSOP]

I had to register after seeing this thread. I couldn't feel more strongly that this opinion is what kills the musician's lifestyle. It's almost sickening (and certainly disheartening) to read.

Thank you! I agree 100% with what you've posted. It's one thing when a non-musician posts that kind of insanity, but when someone who claims to be a working musician DEFENDS performing for zero compensation, I just want to scream!!!

[circh bustom]

^^ All of that is fine, except making broad statements like that is the same thing that has gotten others tasting their own feet on here. People started getting paid for music because the audience was willing to pay for it. The audience, is no longer willing to shell out what is required to go to a live performance. This means that if you want to play AND get paid, some changes need to be made. Just because you put in your time, buy shiny new drum toys, and act as professional as a surgeon performing heart surgery on the President does not guarantee that you should get paid. You can be the best in the world but if no one wants to pay to hear you play, then you dont get paid. Im not talking about agreeing on a figure and then having the owner try to renegg at the end of the night, that is a different story. In a perfect world, all the things Jeff said are correct. This is not a perfect world, and the jazz world is even less perfect. The same way the musician needs to cover his costs and wants to walk away with some kind of profit, so does the club owner. His overhead is probably off the charts. You dont have jazz clubs in the sticks, so its safe to assume that it is a city or some other type of metropolitan area. Rent is a factor, hiring a staff is another, ensuring quality food and drinks, maintenance costs, and utilities. Then entertainment costs get factored in. If a club only wants to pay a certain amount for entertainment than so be it. Maybe its his loss. Maybe its not. There used to be a jazz club on one of the barrier islands here in south jersey. Never did i see more than 10 people listening to quality, world class playing. The musicians got a fair wage. Now its a dance club with a DJ thumping music every Fri and Sat night. You can't get in the door after 1030pm. No one asked you as a musician to do what you have done. Jeff, doing all those things you said with a hope of getting paid at the end of the night kind of cheapens it in my eyes. Takes it away from why we play music to begin with. Before you tell me i'm not a musician that has been paid, let me tell you now that you wouldnt be further from the truth. Gigging gave me the down payment for my house. Ive been very fortunate to feed my family with music for extended periods of time, but I in no way felt that I deserved it because I had done "this this and this". If you want to run your musical life as a business, you have every right and im sure most of us would wish you luck. BUT music is a priviledge, not a right. If you want to make sure you get what you consider to be a fair wage for playing, rent a place, hire a staff, buy the alcohol and the food, supply the PA, and whatever else has to be done. Then play your gig at your place and at the end of the night you can go to the bank happy. There is a club/bar around these parts that has gotten a bad rap recently due to undercutting bands and cancelling gigs with bands that dont draw a crowd. I have had no issues with this club, in fact at the last gig we did, on NYE guy threw us an extra 100$ at the end of the night. Why? People wanted to hear us play and came out and drank. We would've played exactly the same if no one was there, but that doesnt help anybody financially. This guy always calls ME for a gig, not the other way around. We dont low ball him. We get 100$ a man, plus a few drinks if we dont go overboard. Again, I understand that at one time it might have been easier to be a professional musician, but times change and you need to change with it. Im sure the guys at Polaroid and Kodak and Maxell wish people still used magnetic cassettes and film but they dont. Should we start a movement to help the guy who trained all these years to be good at his job at Polaroid, get a fair and decent wage? We could, its called using film. But the public doesnt want it anymore. Can you still find some film out there? Sure, but the guy making it isn't making the same amount of money anymore. As I stated in an earlier post, my wife and I hope that someday we can own our establishment that serves food and live music, and that hopefully I can use my experience in the club world to help out all parties involved. That may be the best thing that comes out of this. A wave of musician-owned clubs that might be able to avoid alot of the bullshit since it will be a club owner that has walked a mile in the performers shoes. We shall see.

[DSOP]

It costs a lot of money to run a hospital. I don't see any doctors or surgeons working for free even though they love their work (aside from charity work). None of your analogies hold any water. If you're okay working for free, go nuts. But please understand the harm you're doing to your fellow musicians. It's one thing to play for fun with some friends at a small club where there's no chance in hell anyone would pay to see music; but to cheapen what we all do by playing for free when the venue is charging for admission and charging for food and/or drinks and then DEFEND it like it is the moral high ground is completely absurd.

I'll say it again: If it's worth hearing, it's worth paying for. If a club can't afford to pay musicians, they shouldn't offer live music. Simple. If they hire a band without figuring out if they're any good, then that's the club's fault too. If the band is good and no one shows up, then the market can't support live music. Again, simple.

Please try using some paragraph breaks too.

[circh bustom]

What, one long rant isnt good? hahaha

Only in America is being a doctor or nurse considered a high paying wage. And there are plenty of doctors and nurses in this world who do what they do with just enough to survive.
I don't believe playing because you love playing and love to entertain for little or no money cheapens the experience at all. Nor do I believe that musicians who bring alot of people into the club to see them play should be duped. It's this sense of entitlement that bothers me. I am not owed anything by anyone just because Ive put alot of time in. Im doing a gig on Fri as a favor for some musicians who would've had to cancel a gig. The band is not getting paid, it's pretty much an audition set to gain access to an opening slot for another band that has a shit ton of shows booked. They are covering my gas and food. It wont cost me anything, nor will I profit. So, am I hurting my fellow musicians by taking this gig? The club and the other band will probably make out all right, but I dont care. I got to learn new tunes, and I get to lock in with a brand new bass player that I have never even met. A real test of my playing. No rehearsal, just a list of songs and arraingment notes. I can't wait for this gig.
Maybe this whole situation is part of the process of weeding out those that should be getting paid and those that shouldn't.

[Josiah]

There are actually 1,000's of doctors and nurses who work for free. Doctors Without Borders is a good example. Not only do they work for free, but work and live in some pretty horrible environments.

Not getting paid in a band means the club owner cares about his/her business and doesn't give a crap about yours.. or your time. They love finding the band who will do it over and over again "for the joy of playing live music" and I can assure you that they're laughing, with your money in their hand, all the way to the bank. I can also assure you that you're number is on speed dial on the club owner's iphone, with the label of "Sucker" right next to it.

You missed it dude. By a very very long mile. Getting paid by the club is great. But it's NOT REQUIRED.

You can't assure anything you are saying unless you are a club owner. Which, you aren't. I know club owners, they aren't laughing to the bank. They are crying because business sucks so bad right now on all facets. The price of everything has gone up, from beer to food to rent. Combined with people spending less.



None the less, here's a real clear cut thing. Myself (and a few others on this board) went to a fairly impressive music school, at this school are VERY successful people in the music business.

And they repeatedly say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you greedy folk are saying. Now ain't that a thing?

"Play as much as possible. Don't worry about the money. Just get out and play."


In fact those very same people were very adamant about NOT having the attitude of "HOW MUCH?!" Nobody wants to deal with greedy bastards.


Here's the funny thing. I make a living playing music and I'm not complaining about it. It seems the people who aren't even doing it, are the ones here bitching.

I've got more, higher paying, gigs from meeting people on free or very low paying gigs then any other way.

Example: My band just booked a huge festival, one of the booking agents for that festival saw us play live at local club - a show which we were playing for free - now because of that 1 free show, we book a huge paying gig.

Oh and by the way, just because the club doesn't pay us, doesn't mean we don't make money. We make money at every show. It's called selling merchandise, cd's etc...

Like 'jeff' said - what rock band will let you walk into their show for free? None. But you've falsely assumed the ticket price was how they make money. The tickets just pay for the rent of the venue. Touring bands making money from selling merchandise at the show!


Also it should be noted, being from LA - None of the major clubs pay bands that aren't major label. Key Club, Viper Room, Roxy, HoB, etc

If you are relying on the clubs payment exclusively for your money, that's absurd. Any tour manager can tell you that. Your income as a musician comes from selling your music and merchandise.

I have a feeling the people complaining here about not making money from clubs play in cover bands. Because that is the only case where you would be 100% reliant on the venue for your income. Since you are making money from directly copying other artists work, I have no sympathy for you.

If you can't figure out how to make money off your original music, aside from what a club might pay, I equally have no sympathy for you.

[DSOP]

I have a feeling the people complaining here about not making money from clubs play in cover bands. Because that is the only case where you would be 100% reliant on the venue for your income. Since you are making money from directly copying other artists work, I have no sympathy for you.

If you can't figure out how to make money off your original music, aside from what a club might pay, I equally have no sympathy for you.

Who is asking for your sympathy? We're just pointing out that your approach just makes things worse and that you are being taken advantage of. Apparently it works for you and you enjoy supporting yourself by playing for free and making money on the occasional paying gig or selling t-shirts, cds and stickers. I'm sure that pays very well in Colorado.

Personally, just looking at the showcase scene in LA, I really don't see the point. Most nights there are at least four bands playing. They don't don't get a real sound check; They all share the same shitty drums with beat-up heads; The soundman doesn't know what he's doing, doesn't care about any of the bands, and has never even heard any of them (and is probably only getting paid around $100 for the whole night); And the bands are just playing for their friends. The friends of the other bands will usually split as soon as the band they came to see is done.

End result: 4 or 5 bad to average bands that sound like crap due to an indifferent soundman and no soundcheck. Time that would have been better spent in a rehearsal hall. If a band really wants to make a splash, there are much better ways nowadays. And if you really want to "get out there" and "play with anyone and everyone", there are plenty of jam nights all over the place.

[Yussuf]

Myself (and a few others on this board) went to a fairly impressive music school, at this school are VERY successful people in the music business.

And they repeatedly say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you greedy folk are saying. Now ain't that a thing?

No. Writing things like this on the internet doesn't necessarily make a convincing statement. What school was this and who were these succesful people?

In fact those very same people were very adamant about NOT having the attitude of "HOW MUCH?!" Nobody wants to deal with greedy bastards.

Wanting to get rightfully paid doesn't make anyone a greedy bastard.

[circh bustom]

DSOP- what you described in your last post is the same in NYC, Philly, etc. Apparently this has worked for some bands that have been able to rise out of that situation. Plus, its kind of fun to all cram into a van and drive 2 hours to play a 30 minute set on a Tuesday night at CBGB. Why? Cause it's cool. It's fun. The few times I played at CBGB before it closed were some of the most fun Ive had as a musician. There were not many people, but it was rockin and I feel I'm a slightly better musician for having the experience. Same with all the other clubs Ive played in NYC and Philly. Sometimes the goal is to just enjoy playing on stage.

I have to agree with Josiah about the cover bands. When Ive done long stints in cover bands, it slowly morphed from "let's see how good we can sound" straight to "why arent we making more money?" That's when I stopped. Im no commune-livin hippie that wants to live off the earth and hates money, I love getting paid, and sometimes getting paid for music is great, but it's the cherry, not the ice cream.

Musicians can fight for what ever they want for their own personal gain, but as much as you say playing for the joy of it hurts our fellow musicians, playing solely with the idea of profiting from your instrument I think hurts musicians just as much.

I tried paragraph breaks, hopefully they work. They did not on my last post.

[deseipel]

It just feels wrong to not get paid consistently. Don't you think that its dangerous to play for free? What if you were asked to play for free everytime? Why is one gig ok to play for free and not all of them? Where's the line?