Hi guys,
My original post was only about a thread I found on the Billy Ward forum that I found interesting. I liked to know about Chamberlain and Gadd's habit of practicing things very slowly, I thought it might be helpful in my own routine as well as in some others routine too. I practice a lot and I try to stick to my routine the best I can. I don't count hours, I just try to get the job done.
The thread kinda went wrong from there.
Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
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renardvert
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Odd-Arne Oseberg
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
Only people who care about my degree are schools that hire me. They'd hire me anyway, but it I get paid according to my credits.
I have first rehearsal with a new band today that and first gig on march 3rd. Basically got a list of 40 songs and have 2 hours today and one more 2 hour (hopefully) rehearsal before the first gig. That is a pretty normal way to do it.
I have first rehearsal with a new band today that and first gig on march 3rd. Basically got a list of 40 songs and have 2 hours today and one more 2 hour (hopefully) rehearsal before the first gig. That is a pretty normal way to do it.
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samnmax203
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
renardvert wrote:Hi guys,
My original post was only about a thread I found on the Billy Ward forum that I found interesting. I liked to know about Chamberlain and Gadd's habit of practicing things very slowly, I thought it might be helpful in my own routine as well as in some others routine too. I practice a lot and I try to stick to my routine the best I can. I don't count hours, I just try to get the job done.
The thread kinda went wrong from there.
I found the piece very interesting! So much so that when Josiah decided to butcher the message I felt inclined to respond to him. My apologies for jacking your thread. I think I'll go zen out with some 40 bpm rudiments.
...and I'm not going to log how long it takes me for fear that my next gig might review my practice logs!
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renardvert
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
samnmax203 wrote:renardvert wrote:Hi guys,
My original post was only about a thread I found on the Billy Ward forum that I found interesting. I liked to know about Chamberlain and Gadd's habit of practicing things very slowly, I thought it might be helpful in my own routine as well as in some others routine too. I practice a lot and I try to stick to my routine the best I can. I don't count hours, I just try to get the job done.
The thread kinda went wrong from there.
I found the piece very interesting! So much so that when Josiah decided to butcher the message I felt inclined to respond to him. My apologies for jacking your thread. I think I'll go zen out with some 40 bpm rudiments.
...and I'm not going to log how long it takes me for fear that my next gig might review my practice logs!
Hahaha. No problem.
Have fun working your 40 bpm stuff. I surely will.
Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
Josiah is a good troll. Nice that the Mods let him play...
Post some of your stuff J-man, is that too big a challenge?
Post some of your stuff J-man, is that too big a challenge?
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circh bustom
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
Wow. First off, and I am sure this will ruffle a few feathers, but Gadd is no longer at the forfront of drumming. His skills are undeniable, yes, but he is not still pushing the envelope in the way Vinnie still is, and Vinnie is not THAT far behind Gadd in age or recorded output. Yes James Taylor and Eric Clapton and Paul Simon have (allegedly) scheduled tours around Gadd, BUT all three of those artists are again, not known for being modern artists. I just watched the 2010 Crossroads Sunday, Gadd was fantastic, smooth as silk. But again, he's not really modern anymore. The people I mentioned hire him for his undeniable groove, yes, but they have all also played with him so many times that it would be counterproductive to hire a new guy and teach him all the set breaks and cues blah blah blah. So to compare Gadd in the 70's to now? Well that one I can't do. The list that Samnmax listed of Gadd's recent output looks to me what Gadd would have done in two months in say 1976 or 77, not to mention gigs out the ass at the same time. Again, Im not ragging on Gadd. He is who he is.
As far as time taken to learn material, if you are playing for fun, and only want to play to hear yourself do cool stuff, take all the time in the world. But when it is someone else's dime, why is it so hard to imagine that the guy who can pull something off in an hour would be more hireable than the guy who can do it in 8 hours? Sure, when you are already on the gig, whatever sounds good, sounds good. But what if you are on tour and at soundcheck the leader says "I want to do this tune tonight that none of us has done before" Do you think it will be ok to take 8 hours to learn it? I dont think so. I've been in that situation, and I am glad I worked on quick learning skills. I'm sure the leader only cared about how it sounded to his audience, but I'm also sure my ability to learn what he wanted quickly, even if only subconsciously, helped me get the call for the next 6 week tour he did.
No one at any audition has seriously asked how much time I spent learning their tunes, jokingly maybe, half serious to get a feel for how easily I can or cannot learn a song. I get calls occasionally to sub for rock cover bands, and while their is a somewhat list of rock "standards" these days, not every band is following that. If I get a call on Wed for a Sat nite gig, I can't take 8 hours to learn each song. End of story. If it takes 8 hours for me to get a slight groove the first time I play the clave with my left foot while doing flammaddiddles starting with my left hand, then that is another altogether. It SHOULD take me 8 hours the first time I do that, haha.
Most definitely with the proliferation of the internet, drumming ability has shot thru the roof. I can sit, for a two hour practice session scanning youtube for licks, chops, grooves, tips, whatever that might have only been available to me in some weird book or from a private teacher. Not only that, kids are practicing more and more. They are playing harder, and faster and more complex than kids their age 20 years ago. Look at some of these videos of kids, real young, playing some wicked shit. You think that's by accident? No. These kids are absorbing and utilizing information so quick, that our heads are spinning. Yes, there have always been young kids that had mad skills, Carter, Poogie Bell, and Buddy Rich come to mind quick, but coupled with the modern mindset of "making it big", these kids are hammering stuff out. Some of these college age kids I see on the internet, smoke a majority of the players in my REGION. From the tip of Jersey thru the other side of Philly and halfway north to NYC. I think this progression is natural, same as you stated when those DCI videos hit the market, hell yeah there was an explosion, and a whole legion of people learning new things. The fact that the videos and such are highly accessible, and the level of talent that seems to be rising up, means that people are using what is available to them. And they are using it wisely.
People definitely fly all over the country to go to certain schools for the networking. Some of our "favorites" that we all love on this site have said the same thing in articles in drumming publications. A rudiment is a rudiment. What you do with it creatively is up to you. Is someone going to teach the same student better at MI than at Berklee? Maybe, but as said in an earlier thread about Berklee, you go there for the scene around the school, and the gigs that are available.
It does matter about talent. The problem is that the talent and ability to pull something off drumwise, should be a GIVEN!! especially at certain levels. Be ready to strike whenever called upon. Plan for spontineaity. I believe, Josiah meant, be the guy who someone can call that has a wide range available. Sometimes its good to focus on one thing and take it as far as possible, but alot of solo artists want jacks-of-all trades so as to not hinder what they hear in their head. (sounds like Sting to me...)
Producers these days are all about the dollar bills. Do it quick and get it done. The few times they call in live drummers to play on top of their already recorded music, they dont want to wait. The longer they wait the more they think about how their drum machine coulda done it quicker. Also when was the last time you heard a producer, besides J-Dilla, talk about a human feel? They want relentless, unquavering groove. That is not human.
You cant have it both ways. If it is solely art you are after, there is no finish line. But when someone is hiring you to be the finishing touch on their art, well, time is money. The ability to do something quick, and to know how to learn something quick, which is a skill set in and of itself, is what speaks and will get you or the other guy hired.
As far as time taken to learn material, if you are playing for fun, and only want to play to hear yourself do cool stuff, take all the time in the world. But when it is someone else's dime, why is it so hard to imagine that the guy who can pull something off in an hour would be more hireable than the guy who can do it in 8 hours? Sure, when you are already on the gig, whatever sounds good, sounds good. But what if you are on tour and at soundcheck the leader says "I want to do this tune tonight that none of us has done before" Do you think it will be ok to take 8 hours to learn it? I dont think so. I've been in that situation, and I am glad I worked on quick learning skills. I'm sure the leader only cared about how it sounded to his audience, but I'm also sure my ability to learn what he wanted quickly, even if only subconsciously, helped me get the call for the next 6 week tour he did.
No one at any audition has seriously asked how much time I spent learning their tunes, jokingly maybe, half serious to get a feel for how easily I can or cannot learn a song. I get calls occasionally to sub for rock cover bands, and while their is a somewhat list of rock "standards" these days, not every band is following that. If I get a call on Wed for a Sat nite gig, I can't take 8 hours to learn each song. End of story. If it takes 8 hours for me to get a slight groove the first time I play the clave with my left foot while doing flammaddiddles starting with my left hand, then that is another altogether. It SHOULD take me 8 hours the first time I do that, haha.
Most definitely with the proliferation of the internet, drumming ability has shot thru the roof. I can sit, for a two hour practice session scanning youtube for licks, chops, grooves, tips, whatever that might have only been available to me in some weird book or from a private teacher. Not only that, kids are practicing more and more. They are playing harder, and faster and more complex than kids their age 20 years ago. Look at some of these videos of kids, real young, playing some wicked shit. You think that's by accident? No. These kids are absorbing and utilizing information so quick, that our heads are spinning. Yes, there have always been young kids that had mad skills, Carter, Poogie Bell, and Buddy Rich come to mind quick, but coupled with the modern mindset of "making it big", these kids are hammering stuff out. Some of these college age kids I see on the internet, smoke a majority of the players in my REGION. From the tip of Jersey thru the other side of Philly and halfway north to NYC. I think this progression is natural, same as you stated when those DCI videos hit the market, hell yeah there was an explosion, and a whole legion of people learning new things. The fact that the videos and such are highly accessible, and the level of talent that seems to be rising up, means that people are using what is available to them. And they are using it wisely.
People definitely fly all over the country to go to certain schools for the networking. Some of our "favorites" that we all love on this site have said the same thing in articles in drumming publications. A rudiment is a rudiment. What you do with it creatively is up to you. Is someone going to teach the same student better at MI than at Berklee? Maybe, but as said in an earlier thread about Berklee, you go there for the scene around the school, and the gigs that are available.
It does matter about talent. The problem is that the talent and ability to pull something off drumwise, should be a GIVEN!! especially at certain levels. Be ready to strike whenever called upon. Plan for spontineaity. I believe, Josiah meant, be the guy who someone can call that has a wide range available. Sometimes its good to focus on one thing and take it as far as possible, but alot of solo artists want jacks-of-all trades so as to not hinder what they hear in their head. (sounds like Sting to me...)
Producers these days are all about the dollar bills. Do it quick and get it done. The few times they call in live drummers to play on top of their already recorded music, they dont want to wait. The longer they wait the more they think about how their drum machine coulda done it quicker. Also when was the last time you heard a producer, besides J-Dilla, talk about a human feel? They want relentless, unquavering groove. That is not human.
You cant have it both ways. If it is solely art you are after, there is no finish line. But when someone is hiring you to be the finishing touch on their art, well, time is money. The ability to do something quick, and to know how to learn something quick, which is a skill set in and of itself, is what speaks and will get you or the other guy hired.
Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
The original article was referring to practice time, not how long it takes to learn a song, or "memorize" a part. He was merely suggesting that there is no need to worry about the amount of time you spend practicing. Take your time and work on it. Don't try and absorb more than you are capable of. Focus on what you're trying to accomplish, and give it its due process.
As for your comment that drumming ability has shot through the roof, that may be true. But if chops are so awesome and desirable, how come everyone's got 'em? Again, the original article was suggesting that it's more important to work on being musical than a spectacle.
As for your comment that drumming ability has shot through the roof, that may be true. But if chops are so awesome and desirable, how come everyone's got 'em? Again, the original article was suggesting that it's more important to work on being musical than a spectacle.
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circh bustom
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
I said drumming abilioty has gone thru the roof, but I don't mean chops, solely. Look at the guys who not only can groove their asses off but could melt the varnish off the stage as well. That is an evolution.
Yes, practice time while in the infant stages of your drumming, or at the beginning of a new skill set, is very important. But that article was most likely not written for the novice beginner. It seems aimed at guys or gals like ourselves who are somewhere in the middle, who know alot of the drumming history already and can relate to, respect and understand guys like Jordan or Chamberlain. I know i have X amount of ability, and I have learned enough "new" things in my years, that I've taken an honest look at myself and my skills, to learn new songs in the real world for a gig(which is kind of what we all argue that it's really about right?) that I could honestly accept, I mean no one is gonna call me to sub for Dafnis Prieto this weekend, I wouldn't have a problem not only doing them quickly, but getting to a point where they sound comfortable to the listener.
Now don't get me wrong, I can see where the thread went left, and i can see it is sort of an argument about advancement of the art practice vs gettin-you-more-gigs practice. Adavncement of the art should theoretically have no time limit, save for the whole 10,000 hrs to master thing. But in the evolution of the art, the lines between the two are blurring. People hiring us as drummers are starting to not only want the guy who can lay it down and be "proper", but also want the guy who when pointed to is gonna light the place up. They want the guy who will play a somewhat unique groove, or even a flashy groove. The guy or gal who can be busy yet unobtrusive all while creating something on the spot.
Yes, practice time while in the infant stages of your drumming, or at the beginning of a new skill set, is very important. But that article was most likely not written for the novice beginner. It seems aimed at guys or gals like ourselves who are somewhere in the middle, who know alot of the drumming history already and can relate to, respect and understand guys like Jordan or Chamberlain. I know i have X amount of ability, and I have learned enough "new" things in my years, that I've taken an honest look at myself and my skills, to learn new songs in the real world for a gig(which is kind of what we all argue that it's really about right?) that I could honestly accept, I mean no one is gonna call me to sub for Dafnis Prieto this weekend, I wouldn't have a problem not only doing them quickly, but getting to a point where they sound comfortable to the listener.
Now don't get me wrong, I can see where the thread went left, and i can see it is sort of an argument about advancement of the art practice vs gettin-you-more-gigs practice. Adavncement of the art should theoretically have no time limit, save for the whole 10,000 hrs to master thing. But in the evolution of the art, the lines between the two are blurring. People hiring us as drummers are starting to not only want the guy who can lay it down and be "proper", but also want the guy who when pointed to is gonna light the place up. They want the guy who will play a somewhat unique groove, or even a flashy groove. The guy or gal who can be busy yet unobtrusive all while creating something on the spot.
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Jim Richman
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
Who was this article written for? Who knows. All I can say is that Steve Gadd is Steve Gadd. Is he relevant to music today? I think he is relevant wherever he is at.circh bustom wrote:
Yes, practice time while in the infant stages of your drumming, or at the beginning of a new skill set, is very important. But that article was most likely not written for the novice beginner. It seems aimed at guys or gals like ourselves who are somewhere in the middle, who know alot of the drumming history already and can relate to, respect and understand guys like Jordan or Chamberlain.
Keith Mansfield rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Julián Fernández
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Re: Practice routine stuff and groove insights.
The more I play and the more I know "talented" musicians, the more believe that the ONLY talent that really matters is perseverance. Forget age, gender or natural skills: if there´s a person willing to devote 6-8 hours a day to playing there´s very little things that can stop he or she achieving their dreams... (oh, btw, funny how the more I practice, the more people found me "talented".. ja jaj a)
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