Seeking Justice for Musicians in Jazz Clubs

[DSOP]

How about the person who salts the roads when it's icy conditions out. I'm sure those cats would like a few more bucks for thier efforts. Look up that forum. They are screaming for recognition.

Is the city not paying them, citing "there weren't enough cars on the road tonight"? Are they working for free in order to take work away from other "salters" who demand to be paid? What is up with these ridiculous analogies?

Everyone knows that jazz is not a wildly popular music form. That is not under discussion. I FUCKING GET IT!

[DSOP]

WHY LA CLUBOWNERS ARE TOTALLY LOST AND SOME ADVICE FOR THEM FROM A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN

by Dave Goldberg on Friday, January 6, 2012 at 9:53 am

AS I’VE BEEN LOOKING FOR GIGS LATELY, I’ve never seen so many free and low paying gigs. Well the economy is bad, so I can understand that a little bit. However, it is no longer good enough for the musician to be willing to perform for little compensation. Now we are expected to also be the venue’s promoter. The expectations are that the band will not only provide great music, but also bring lots of people to their venue. It is now the band’s responsibility to make this happen, not the club owner. Just the other day I was told by someone who owned a wine bar that they really liked our music and would love for us to play at their place. She then told me the gig paid $75 for a trio. Now $75 used to be bad money per person, let alone $75 for the whole band. It had to be a joke, right? No she was serious. But it didn’t end there. She then informed us we had to bring 25 people minimum. Didn’t even offer us extra money if we brought 25 people. I would have laughed other than it’s not the first time I’ve gotten this proposal from club owners. But are there musicians really doing this? Yes. They are so desperate to play, they will do anything. But lets think about this for a second and turn this around a little bit. What if I told the wine bar owner that I have a great band and we are going to play at my house. I need someone to provide and pour wine while we play. I can’t pay much, just $75 and you must bring at least 25 people who are willing to pay a $10 cover charge at the door. Now wouldn’t they look at you like you are crazy?

"Why would I do that" they would ask? Well because it’s great exposure for you and your wine bar. The people there would see how well you pour wine and see how good your wine is. Then they would come out to your wine bar sometime.

"But I brought all the people myself, I already know them?" they would say. Well maybe you could make up some professional looking flyers, pass them out, and get people you don’t know to come on out.

"But you are only paying me $75, How can I afford to make up flyers?" You see how absurd this sounds, but musicians do this all the time. If they didn’t, then the club owners wouldn’t even think of asking us to do it. So this sounds like a great deal for the club owners doesn’t it. They get a band and customers for that night, and have to pay very little if anything. But what they don’t realize is that this is NOT in their best interest. Running a restaurant, a club, a bar, is really hard. There is a lot at stake for the owner. You are trying to get loyal customers that will return because you are offering them something special. If you want great food, you hire a great chef. If you want great décor, you hire a great interior decorator. You expect these professionals to do their best at what you are hiring them to do. It needs to be the same with the band. You hire a great band and should expect great music. That should be the end of your expectations for the musicians. The music is another product for thevenue to offer, no different from food or beverages. When a venue opens it’s doors, it has to market itself. The club owner can’t expect people to just walk in the door. This has to be handled in a professional way. Do you really want to leave something so important up to a musician? This is where the club owner needs to take over. It is their success or their failure on the line, not the musician.The musiciancan just move on to another venue.

I’ve played places where for whatever reason only a few people have walked in the door on a Saturday night. The club owner got mad at me, asking where are the people? I turned it around on him asking the same thing. Where are all the people? It’s Saturday night and your venue is empty. Doesn’t that concern you? What are you going to do about it? Usually their answer is to find another band with a larger following. This means the professional bands get run out of the joint in favor of whoever can bring in the most people. Eddie Mechanic who has slaved all week fixing cars at the local dealership also plays guitar. Not very well, but he’s been practicing once a week with Doctor Drummer, Banker Bass Player, and Salesman Singer. Usually they just drink beer between rehearsing a few tunes in Eddie’s garage, but this week they answer a craigslist ad and line up a big gig. Well they don’t sound that good, but they sure all work with a lot of people everyday. All these people can be given a flyer on Monday and after being asked "are youcoming to my gig?" everyday all week, will most likely show up on Saturday night. So mission accomplished, the club owner has packed his venue for one night. But here’s where the club owner doesn’t get it. The crowd is following the band, not the venue. The next night you will have to start all over again. And the people that were starting to follow your venue, are now turned off because you just made them listen to a bad band. The goal should be to build a fan base of the venue. To get people that will trust that you will have good music in there every night. Instead you’ve soiled your reputation for a quick fix. I think we as musicians need to fight back. Sure you can get mad about it, but that won’t do anything. We could all agree not to play those for the door gigs, but you know that isn’t going to happen. But what we can do, is explain to the club owner that it’s not in their best interest to operate their business like this. There is too much at stake for them not to be truly invested in the music presented in their venue. Convince them that if they think that live music is important to the demographic that they are trying toreach, then they need to reach out to that demographic in a professional way.

If you asked a club owner, "who is your target demographic?" I doubt they would answer "the band’s friends and family." But yet clubs operate like it is. Another example, I answered a craigslist ad for a nice looking place in Beverly Hills. The ad read… "looking for a high energy jazz band, if you can bring the band and have a following, I will put you on stage."

That logic seams to say that they think musician sin a jazz band know lots of people living in Beverly Hills. And the people those musicians know, have lots of money to spend. Those are two pretty big assumptions. Good luck finding that combination. Even if you find that combination, are you going to find it every night? Because friends and family of a professional musician won’t come out that often. They can’t. This is what we do every night .Would you expect the chef’s friends and family to eat at your restaurant every night? How about the dishwasher, the waitresses, the hostess? Or how about the club owners friends and family? You see, when you start turning this argument around, it becomes silly. I’ve started arguing with club owners about this. It happened after I played a great night of music in LA. We were playing for a % of the bar. There were about 50 people there in this small venue, so it was a good turnout. At the end of the night, I go to get paid, and hope to book another gig. The club owner was angry.

"Where are your people?" he asked. "All these people, I brought in. We had a speed dating event and they are all left over from that."

I pointed out theyall stayed and listened to the music for 2 hours aftertheir event ended. That was 2 more hours of bar sales, because without us, you have an empty room with nothing going on. He just couldn’t get over the fact that we didn’t walk in with our own entourage of fans. Wasn’t happy that we kept a full room spending money. Right when we were talking, a group ofpeople interrupted us and said "you guys sound great, when is the next time you’re playing here again?" The club owner, said "they aren’t, they didn’t bring anyone."

I went home that night bummed out and sent him an email. Telling him most of what you are reading here and how his business model and thinking is flawed. After a lot of swearing back and forth, because I’m guessing that musicians never talk to him as a business equal. He eventually admitted that what I was saying made sense. BUT, that’s not how LA clubs and restaurants work. And he has bands answering his craigslist ads willing to do whatever it takes to get the gig. It’s been a couple of years now since that conversation. I called his bar, and the number is disconnected. So there you go LA club and restaurant owners. The advice is free. But you’ll most likely ignore it because "That’s not how it works"

But if more musicians kept telling them the same thing, perhaps it would start to sink in.

[Josiah]

"And he has bands answering his craigslist ads willing to do whatever it takes to get the gig."

That is the crux of the issue. Not the club owners. As long as someone else is willing to work for less, even while providing an inferior product, they will ultimately win and define the market.

Proof? Pull out your phone and think about where it's made. Why you got such a "great deal on it". And how, sure it probably could be made better, but it's so cheap anyway....

[circh bustom]

^^ I have to agree on that one. Clubs can survive without live music. They are called restaurants. Sometimes, I might even want to hear the band that was eager enough to play live without the burden of "how much am I gonna make?" or "why is the club making all this money and Im not?"
The only issue I have with club owners right now is keeping them to their word. The club owner is not there to cater to me the musician. While I agree with some of the article that DSOP just posted, it's the state of the economy. I remember the tail end of the glory days as it is known around south jersey where bands were easily getting 4 figures a night. 4-5 days a week. That just won't happen anymore. Same with the housing market. It's a buyers market right now. And with clubs, the club owners have the upper hand. If we as musicians don't like it, we can go do something else. Or just, gasp, play for the joy of playing. We don't need 600$ snare drums, and 450$ cymbals and 600$ double pedals. As been posted before, the equiptment is only a tool, it's all in the hands. Whining to a club owner that you bring all this gear in will do nothng but make you look like a whining musician. A 12 year old Tama Rockstar 4 piece with B8 cymbals and a 99$ DW 7000 pedal will sound amazing in the hands of someone who loves the music and cares about what they do. Again, Im all for musicians not getting burned, but it is what it is. Im playing a fill-in gig next week. The band isnt getting paid, but they are going to give me gas money since it is 75 miles each way. It isnt going to cost me anything, nor am I making any money. But I am very much looking forward to this gig, and Im going to have a great time. The bar will probably make a decent amount of coin, but that is not my business. My business is making sure I know my parts and that my drums sound good. If I want to concern myself with the clubs "cut" of the night, ill open up my own club and go from there.

[DSOP]

You can "play for the joy of playing" in your basement or rehearsal room. The only reason bands perform and don't demand payment is because they are being rewarded in a different way: by having their ego stroked. The bar is being lowered every day this continues. The bands that continually play every night in the "showcase" clubs of Los Angeles would have been booed off the stage 20 years ago.

This isn't about being catered to by a club owner, or being concerned about how much money they're making. It's about providing a service that deserves remuneration. I have NEVER seen or heard a decent band that was playing for free. Ever (unless it was a charity event).

[Josiah]

You can "play for the joy of playing" in your basement or rehearsal room. The only reason bands perform and don't demand payment is because they are being rewarded in a different way: by having their ego stroked.

Oh man that is just utter nonsense. Truly horsesh*t

It also is very telling about you as a player - You obviously do not play live music. You have no idea what you are talking about. It's pretty rare I'll call someone out, but that there tells me you are not a player.





Being paid to play is the gravy on the plate, the steak is that I get to do it. Not the other way around.


Playing live is the best feeling in the world as a musician. As a drummer, making people dance, move and bounce is even better. I LOVE playing live.

Anybody can play in their basement, but few can make a room of people dance. And I don't need to be paid for that. It is an honor and a joy that I will continue to pursue my whole life.

[Christopher]

This thread just reminds us all that the times are sure not friendly to live music these days.

(I believe) it’s sort of a perfect storm…

A combo of people not having the money to go out, super stiff drunk driving laws, and alternate entertainments (Internet, DVDs, Gaming)…

Plus, (generally speaking) who goes out the most these days? Isn’t it people in their 20s? Girls that age usually want to go to dance clubs, not band bars. And the guys are sure to follow the girls most of the time. Another strike.

I wonder how musicians coped during the Great Depression? Maybe better as they didn’t have to contend with DUI laws and DJs? Dunno.

Allot of the points in the Goldberg article that DSOP posted are solid, and point out just how undervalued live music is now. It’s a crying shame. But it is.

And even though Goldberg’s argument is sound, it doesn’t change a thing. And it won’t.

The vast majority of club owners are in business to make money. If they perceive that a band is helping them achieve that, they’ll pay them. If not, they will more than likely keep trying until they find something that will.

Speed dating, Karaoke, DJs. It doesn’t matter which. Whatever puts money in the till will be the winner.

I’ve noticed that there are several bars in Philly doing open mic nights to draw live music people in without having to pay the entertainment. It’s working I guess because it’s been the better part of a year and a half that it’s been going on.

[Gaddabout]

If everybody in the West would stop voting against my trains, we'd have commutable, walkable communities where people actually weren't afraid to go out and drink and listen to live music. Then maybe things would stabilize.



Sorry. I'm always looking for any opportunity to get in my train pitch.

[littlegrooves]

It also is very telling about you as a player - You obviously do not play live music. You have no idea what you are talking about. It's pretty rare I'll call someone out, but that there tells me you are not a player.

Being paid to play is the gravy on the plate, the steak is that I get to do it. Not the other way around.

Playing live is the best feeling in the world as a musician. As a drummer, making people dance, move and bounce is even better. I LOVE playing live.

Anybody can play in their basement, but few can make a room of people dance. And I don't need to be paid for that. It is an honor and a joy that I will continue to pursue my whole life.

Then I will have to call you out-- you are not a professional. That does not mean that you are not a great player (I don't know and don't care); however, it does point to the fact that you do not value playing an instrument as a part of your overall professional portfolio, and as a way of gaining income.

Go ask an architect to build you a house for the "love of it", or an engineer to design an engine for you "at no cost". These professionals have put a value on their services. If musicians are serious about their profession, they should strive to do the same. However, the problem exists that perhaps it is less about "doing it for the love" of the music, and is more about the fact that jazz music doesn't sell locally. Go ask a bar/club owner how much alcohol revenue comes in on jazz night. Then go find a venue that DJs hip hop/R&B. I'll bet my bottom dollar that jazz gigs bring in peanuts in comparison.

Therefore, it seems that two things are the problem here:

1.) The market has determined that jazz is a low-profit source of entertainment in most venues.

2.) Musicians in general will play for the "love" of their music, and thus make for excellent, and skilled, cheap labor.

Therefore: point #1 + point #2 = 4 hour Monday gig for $75 total. For a trio that's $6.25 per hour per person, not including travel and set up/take down time. That's pretty unskilled pay for someone who may have spent their 10,000 hours on their instrument.

Those two points above taken in conjunction essentially mean that musicians playing this kind of music have zero leverage, whereas those who own venues where this medium can be displayed possess all the leverage-- hence, minimum wage for you. I don't see any reason why this would change anytime soon, if ever.

[Julián Fernández]

I wonder how musicians coped during the Great Depression? Maybe better as they didn’t have to contend with DUI laws and DJs? Dunno.

During the depression, especially after the prohibition of selling alcohol, Jazz musicians had the opportunity to work a lot because a lot of speakeasys bring bands to compite with the other joints... Crazy right?