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Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:15 pm
by Josiah
Riddim wrote:Touch, feel, and your take on what's happening.
That's it.
Hardly. You can't have touch and feel without developing an innate sense of control, which only comes from countless hours of practicing that level of control.
Nobody just sits down and PLAYS. Every drummer who is idolized, on this forum, and by so many others in the world, have spent decades honing their craft.
It's so odd people have this attitude like it's some magical appearing talent. It's not. It's HARD work, for a lifetime.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:11 pm
by Jim Richman
Josiah wrote:I remember hearing that Style, Talent and Personality on an instrument don't appear til a substantial ways along the growth.
I tend to agree with that assessment. Because particularly with drums, it takes so long for people to get out of the mechanical phase, and then again out of the patterns phase (of learning), that true creativity and personality doesn't appear for a LONG time.
In my experience at high learning institutions and through private teaching that most people do not make it to the point of being a distinctive and creative force behind the kit. If you look at the learning phases -
1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence
Most drummers don't make it to stage 3, and it really ramps up getting into stage 4.
Breaking out of the patterns, and more importantly, the muscle memory*, to become truly creative is a great accomplishment. Until then, it's very limited creativity within the bounds of what has been learned.
*Breaking out of the muscle memory bounds is the primary reason Vinnie sites for switching to Traditional Grip.
If I had to choose between 1 or 2, I would choose 1. Being a number 2 would be depressing. Ignorance is bliss.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:31 pm
by Ardent15
Josiah wrote:Riddim wrote:Touch, feel, and your take on what's happening.
That's it.
Hardly. You can't have touch and feel without developing an innate sense of control, which only comes from countless hours of practicing that level of control.
Nobody just sits down and PLAYS. Every drummer who is idolized, on this forum, and by so many others in the world, have spent decades honing their craft.
It's so odd people have this attitude like it's some magical appearing talent. It's not. It's HARD work, for a lifetime.
I agree with this. There's a saying I've heard that applies here...
"Attitude is more important than aptitude."
You can have plenty of "natural talent", but if you don't put in the time to get better, how will you ever know what you're capable of?
EDIT: and this does not just apply to technique, it applies to phrasing, time, musicality...the list goes on.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:49 pm
by Jim Richman
Josiah wrote:Riddim wrote:Touch, feel, and your take on what's happening.
That's it.
Hardly. You can't have touch and feel without developing an innate sense of control, which only comes from countless hours of practicing that level of control.
Nobody just sits down and PLAYS. Every drummer who is idolized, on this forum, and by so many others in the world, have spent decades honing their craft.
It's so odd people have this attitude like it's some magical appearing talent. It's not. It's HARD work, for a lifetime.
Touch or feel comes from experience. I agree with Riddim, cause it is assumed that you have done your work when dealing with touch and feel.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:48 am
by Riddim
Josiah wrote:Riddim wrote:Touch, feel, and your take on what's happening.
That's it.
Hardly. You can't have touch and feel without developing an innate sense of control, which only comes from countless hours of practicing that level of control.
Nobody just sits down and PLAYS. Every drummer who is idolized, on this forum, and by so many others in the world, have spent decades honing their craft.
It's so odd people have this attitude like it's some magical appearing talent. It's not. It's HARD work, for a lifetime.
Touch is a matter of mechanics and sensitivity. It doesn't take that long to learn how not to smack the heck out of something, if you apply yourself. It took me about 6 months, as a 12 year old. I don't take it for granted - I maintain it - but a lot of it is attitude; wanting to finesse the band, vs. overpower it, as Lenny White said. If you orient yourself in that direction, you'll develop and maintain it.
I'm not sure how your last 2 sentences follow logically from anything I've said.
What I wrote has nothing to do with a magically appearing talent. It has everything to do with dealing with the here and now, based on who you are, and thinking for yourself. You answer the questions the music poses in your way, not in terms of what would Vinnie do. Vinnie's here; what do you think about this?
You play who you are.
That's what our heroes have done. So can we.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:02 am
by Josiah
Riddim wrote:
You play who you are.
I disagree with that. You play what you know, not who you are. The "who you are" or "personality" of playing doesn't come out for a long long time.
You can look at almost any drummer playing for a decent amount of time, 10 years say, and tell exactly what music they listen too, what they practice, who are their influences...
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:21 am
by Ardent15
Josiah wrote:
You can look at almost any drummer playing for a decent amount of time, 10 years say, and tell exactly what music they listen too, what they practice, who are their influences...
Yeah, but you can do that with ANYONE to an extent. I mean, experienced ears can still tell these days that Vinnie was no small fan of Tony Williams, Steve Gadd, Stewart Copeland, and went through the teachings of Alan Dawson and Gary Chaffee....
My point is: it's not a black or white, either or scenario. You can still wear your influences on your sleeve at the same time as you develop your own thing; indeed, I can't think of anyone who
isn't like that.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:14 pm
by Rhythmatist
Josiah wrote:I remember hearing that Style, Talent and Personality on an instrument don't appear til a substantial ways along the growth.
I tend to agree with that assessment. Because particularly with drums, it takes so long for people to get out of the mechanical phase, and then again out of the patterns phase (of learning), that true creativity and personality doesn't appear for a LONG time.
In my experience at high learning institutions and through private teaching that most people do not make it to the point of being a distinctive and creative force behind the kit. If you look at the learning phases -
1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence
Most drummers don't make it to stage 3, and it really ramps up getting into stage 4.
Breaking out of the patterns, and more importantly, the muscle memory*, to become truly creative is a great accomplishment. Until then, it's very limited creativity within the bounds of what has been learned.
*Breaking out of the muscle memory bounds is the primary reason Vinnie sites for switching to Traditional Grip.
Gary Burton spoke of this very idea at a clinic back in '76. He talked about ALL musicians experiencing this cyclic process of playing by "ear" then going into various phases of discovery and finally returning to playing by "ear" again only in the final stage the ear is armed and dangerous from the experience learned in the discovery phases.
Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:36 pm
by Paul Marangoni
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Re: Musical individuality: some questions to ponder....
Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:48 am
by Riddim
You make your choices, based upon what you know and like - i.e., what you've experienced - who you are - in any area of life.