Cymbal height

[Mark P]

Heya folks!

Long time no post! Been a little nuts around here but I have been checking in as and when I can!
Just a quick question for some of the elder statesmen of the board (although not exclusively) about cymbal heights. Nothing life changing, just something I've been thinking about recently...

Watching that Tommy Campbell video, it's amazing that he can get any rebound on that ride. (Who am I to comment, he absolutely nails everything, so what does it matter) It's set up vertically, and his other metals are way above his head. He's not the only one, Vinnie, Weckl and a whole bunch of other in the 70's and 80's had their cymbals way up high. Just wondering why, if there was any specific reason. Fashion perhaps? Something to do with keeping cymbals away from microphones?

Or is it simply a case of, getting older, the less agile and nimble etc?

Or is it that people suddenly realised it was less effort to set them lower and not have to reach? Although Vinnie, Weckl, Jeff (etc.) aren't exactly stupid, I'm sure they realised setting cymbals up lower = less effort, so that can't necessarily be the case...

One of the only guys that still sets his cymbals up as high as they've always been is Simon Phillips. They really are quite a stretch!

Any personal experiences?

MP

[Cymbalfeltfetishist]

It could be any number of reasons, a lot of them you mentioned.

I think the drummers you mentioned, most of them always having the desire to get better as the years go on, try something new in the spirit of more efficiency. You see their set-ups change over the years.

In my experience, I just want to do stuff easier, less effort to get better results. So my cymbals have lowered over time. I need all the help I can get! Let's face it, as we get older we look at these things, it's not as easy to reach for stuff at a fast rate of speed like it was when we were younger.

Ndugu Chancler has said he just has his cymbals high just so he can see the people and they can see him. There ya go. I always wondered myself why on gods green earth does Simon have his stuff so high?? why why why...but then I hear him play and I forget about the whole thing.

[DSOP]

Having the cymbals high and close (usually the ride) just "feels" a certain way and will make you play differently. Also, the more the cymbal is angled, the "drier" it will play, as a result of the pressure from the cymbal felts and gravity. Having the cymbals high also gives you more real estate for even MORE cymbals too!

In Tommy's case, it may have had more to do with his height (I think he's around 6', 5" tall). In Simon's case (being around 5', 5" tall), it's more about the sound and microphone bleed.

[Christopher]

I agree. And I’m all about economy of motion. I want everything within easy reach if I can have it that way. Cymbals included.

I think you're right about mics. At least in my experience. Live and studio playing, mics and bleed over become big concerns.

Sound engineers seem to get cranky if your cymbals are low enough to bleed into (or even worse, threaten to hit) the tom mics. My cymbals tend to live at about eye height. They’re low enough that I’m not reaching, and high enough that they are out of way of the tom mics.

I know some guys like to have their cymbals above their heads, so they can be seen better.

I’m not that good looking. Nobody is going to want to see me anyhow.

Here's a shot of my kit at my band’s practice space that shows cymbal heights pretty clear.

[Manu]

This is how I'm using my drums now. It's interesting because I play with a prog metal band so I ended up with this setup for being confortable playing the songs of the band. But when I rehearse by myself I play lots of fusion-esque stuf and this setup is not the most confortable. You see, for fusion/jazz playing I like to have the ride right above my third rack tom and a bit high to be able to crash it too. The problem with that setup is that when I rehearse with my band there's lots of fast and long double bass passages over ride patterns and truly I get tired if I have the ride on the fusion position.

Of course the octabans are for the prog band, otherwise they dont make much sense

[Julián Fernández]

I remember Ndugu said that he angled his cymbals that way to have better eye contact with the rest of the band...
Seems to work for him...

[circh bustom]

If I remember correctly, Eric Gravatt, in an MD interview from the mid-90's said that he placed his cymbals high and almost completely vertical due to space constraints and to be able to see the rest of the band.
Personally, I dig having my cymbals quite a bit lower, set up almost exactly the way that they are in the pic with the sparkle blue drums above. I've noticed many drummers setting up similarly especially when only using 3 -4 cymbals. I do however prefer my hats a bit higher than most drummers, not quite like a pop/punk drummer, but usually when I sit at someone else's kit or a kit in a rehearsal studio, they are way low for me.
About 10 years ago a question was posed to Manu Katche about cymbal placement in MD. He said he has 2 levels of cymbals on his kit. Splashes and ride being lower and crashes and china being higher so they could be closer in terms of horizontal distance, so that a large cymbal set-up didn't have to be so spread out.

[matthughen]

John stainer from Battles (and formerly of Helmet)
now THATS high.


Gravatt:

[Josiah]

to each their own, but there is a pretty well known occurrence of RC injuries with drummers who are raising their upper arms above shoulder level with force.

with the ride, it seems more a preference on rebound feel and sound.

there are a few on the fringe, but it's a bell curve, some on that side, some on the other, but most in the middle there with the 'normal'

[Matus]

Face-height is fine for me, maybe a bit higher. Anything below that just feels awkward to me for crashing, like I'm wasting energy, pushing the stick down instead of letting it do the work.
For the ride cymbal it's a matter of a height/angle compensation, I just need the right angle and having it not too high, nor too low. I can't stand having it anywhere below my rack toms, again the "force loss" feeling.
I'll always remember Thomas Lang when asked at a clinic.
"Why do you have your cymbals so high?"
"Because it looks good. Remember, I work in show business"
You know, the guy had a point. I don't have any trouble hitting them a bit higher as long as it still feels right and I don't have to reach. And looks are important in some situations so you can get a great looking kit while keeping them within range. I actually used to have my china cymbals way up high and it's not really that uncomfortable:

Ah, the youth.