I want certain kinds of protections

[Da Chooch]

speaking of which.. i got hacked into. apologies for all the viagra ads

[Josiah]

My hunch is any license this college grants for duplication is actually different than how you've interpreted it. If I'm wrong, I'm intrigued and would like to know more -- would you be willing to give the name of the institutions in question? I honestly would be interested in talking to them about how this works.

True about copying from the library, but none the less the media is there to be enjoyed, for free at leisure.

As for your question about the uni's, most notably Musician's Institute. Quite a few guys on this board have gone there and can attest to the music library, copying stations and the like. Alumni have full use of the schools facilities for life. Not that I've ever gone there to go to the library, but just pointing out that the avenue (for acquiring music legally and free) is there.

If they didn't want you to copy the material, why would they specifically have CD duplication stations? Besides the fact they tell you to so you can learn the music for LPW's, RSW's, etc

I'm just throwing out some very clear examples of where music is freely distributed.

If I had to buy every album that had every cover song I had to learn, it wouldn't be worth it to learn them.

Frankly if selling music, that is the recorded forms, was gone, it might make for a better music industry. Instead of one dominated by commercial appeal surgically specific to particular audiences (aka Justin Bieber, etc) it would force music to be honest to itself and gain fans by quality performance. Which is where I believe things are headed anyway.

I don't make a dime off album sales, it's all live playing or up front payments. Residuals is too risky now a days for small time artists. I would in fact venture that very few working players are making any significant amount of money off residuals. The only people being hurt by piracy are the extremely famous, which are still rich as can be and make a far cry more on live concerts, swag and so forth.

[DSOP]

The only people being hurt by piracy are the extremely famous,..

I just threw up in my mouth.

[circh bustom]

^^ I can see what Josiah is saying. Its kind of a generalization, but think of it this way. I know of quite a few bands personally that are either selling their discs extremely cheap or even giving them away for free. Well produced albums even. They see the writing on the wall. They sell their merchandise and sell tickets to shows, but the albums are close to nothing. If someone in the music "biz" chooses to adhere to an old business model they have every right. But they are not going to succeed, or they will be seen as whining babies, rigid, opposed to change. Any band or musician that puts a record out now, and hasn't lived on their own personal island cut off from the rest of the world, knows the deal. They can put whatever price tag on it they want. Doesn't mean people will pay it. I still don't understand why people think it is a birth right to get paid for playing music. Sure I've been paid to play, and Im sure ill get paid for more gigs or recordings in the future. I'm not stupid so I won't turn it down. But I don't demand to get paid, nor do I turn down a gig or a session cause it doesn't pay enough. That being said, I do like it when my expenses are covered, but even if not, I love to play good music with good musicians. If that is not reward enough, then, well, I guess music doesnt really make you happy and you should take up cabinet making.

[DSOP]

I guess music doesnt really make you happy and you should take up cabinet making.

Making cabinets makes me very happy, but no one wants to pay me for my cabinets. What do I do now?

Is that the solution? Anyone who is doing something they enjoy doing should not expect to be compensated for their services/products.

Fair enough. As long as everyone plays by that rule, I'm okay with it.
Screw copyright. All music, all computer software & games will be free.

We just need to force farmers to give away their produce for nothing now.




If someone is giving away their music for free in order to gain fans or to promote live performances, that's fine.
I think you just devalue your product and sell yourself short giving it all away. If no one is willing to pay for your music,
you need to figure out what the problem is.



But stealing is stealing. End of story.

[circh bustom]

People don't need pre-recorded music.
Simple solution, grow your own food if you don't want to pay farmers for it.
Stealing is stealing, yes. Funny how at one point many things have been illegal that the voice of the people have eventually changed. One time it was illegal for people of certain races to be allowed in certain places at one time. For the longest time it was written into the constitution that a black man wasn't a full person. Just because a model has been around for a long time doesn't make it immune to change. Rosa Parks broke the law, yet you think it ludicrous that she was arrested for sitting in the front of the bus. Enough people broke the law, and things were changed. 65 years ago women weren't allowed to vote, now we have women running for president. Things are changing as we speak, which brings me back to my somewhat agreeing with Josiah's statement, only the people who have already made big bucks from recorded music are being hurt. I'm not saying that it's necessarilly fair to them, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. The bands just starting out are wise to the fact that the old model will never reign supreme again. They do not expect to be paid for recording their music, at least not handsomely enough to make their next meal depend on it. I was in one of the bands I was talking about. We recorded one song with producer Dave Ivory. $2500. Not counting the gas for at least 4 two hour each way road trips, plus new heads, sticks yada yada yada. The band recorded the rest of the record somewhere else. All in total about $7500 when the first pressing came out. Band gave it away for free. Not even trying to recoup the cost of the record. We charged a cover at every single show, and sold merchandise at every single show. The band wasn't that great so I left, didn't care for the music, but the point is, they were not delusional about the state of the business. I don't know how old you are, but judging from your posts, I gather you are at least around my age, 37, if not older. You and I grew up in a time that was different when it comes to music.
I guess when it comes to music, I have more of a socialist mentality. I tried to set up an open mic jam session on a Tuesday night down by me. Spoke to two guys, I said "look, let's do this at this little bar for $50 a man. We can jam out, get a few drinks and gas money, and play all night" they said "no we wont do it for less than $80 a man" The bar is 2 miles from the one guys house, and he is unemployed. He has been home doing nothing the last three Tuesday nights. This guy can play anything on his instrument. But he puts money first. Nobody told him he should try and support himself on music.
That makes me throw up in my mouth a little:) Sorry, couldn't resist.

[DSOP]

Are you saying that no one should expect to make a living as a musician?
If someone is doing something that others enjoy, why is it so wrong
for him/her to expect to be compensated for it?

People don't need pre-recorded music? If that's true, can we also say
that they don't need recorded music at all? Should we just go back
to only live music?

Does anyone need to play an instrument? Shouldn't music lessons be free too then?

As more and more bands and musicians became willing to perform for free
or next to nothing, the quality of the music has deteriorated. That is
a fact. Musicians are being paid the same or LESS now than they were twenty years ago.

You say you recorded with a band that gave away their record for free. Then you say that
the band wasn't that great, so you left. I would hazard a guess that they knew no one
was going to pay for it, and that is why they gave it away.

And your analogies to racial prejudice and civil rights are lost on me. Not sure how you can compare them like that.

[circh bustom]

I was trying to show that not every law that has been on the books forever stays on the books forever. Sure we have had copyright laws for scores of years, but this might be the time in history that they are either rewritten or done away with.
People don't need recorded music the way they would need a cabinet, or food from a farmer. It's very romantic as a musician or music lover to say " I need this record to survive". No you don't. Get real.
Im not saying that people shouldnt have the opportunity to get paid for what they do, but if the public collectively decides they no longer want to pay for something, then that is that. You no longer have an obligation to produce whatever it is you are producing. The public has done this on a smaller scale with individual bands for years. They no longer feel the need to purchase a bands records, so the band stops making records. People no longer want to spend 15, 16 or 17 dollars on a CD, especially when some of the artists themselves admit that the records aren't that important anymore. They would much rather have people spend their money at a live show. I believe an artist posted that very sentiment in a thread on this forum in response to John Mclaughlin's rant about piracy.
And no people shouldn't expect to get paid for playing music. It's a priviledge to even be able to play an instrument. Nor should people expect to get paid for throwing a ball around. Or putting paint on a canvas. If someone decides to wave $$ in your face for playing, great. But I lose respect for any "musician" that refuses to play because of money.
About the band, they just felt after playing so many shows with various other bands that no one was buying cd's anymore at shows. A large part of their audience was and is under 25 yrs old. Better to have the people walk away with some music to listen to than not. People who got the free discs came to quite a few shows, and paid a cover to get in. Most of that $$ went right into the bands pocket and profit.

[Josiah]

I haven't played for a band in the last, at least 5 years, that even remotely expects to make money "selling albums". It's all from live playing-sales.

The concept of selling a physical medium is growing deader by the day. Selling the music online, digitally, perhaps. Selling a drunk in the crowd a CD, Sticker, T-Shirt and Rubber Wrist Band Thingy, for sure, drunk people love to buy stuff.

But, making any money off someone buying your CD from... wait are there even any physical music stores left? Borders is done. There might be a few Virgin's left. I pray that Amoeba lasts forever. But lets be realistic, nobody is taking a trip down to best buy to buy YOUR album.

My girl just bought a new car. It does NOT come with a CD player. You know what it has? USB ports, Ipod Dock, etc...

Someone cranks out a sick album, I got no problem buying it. But buying it blind? No way. Not like it used to be, hear 1 or 2 tracks on the radio and go grab the disc. That's dead. Long gone.

There's a lot of working guys on this forum, show of hands who makes any relevant percentage of income from residual sales.

DSOP you seem to be a big advocate on the side of the RIAA and so forth. What % of your income is from residual album sales?

I believe the fact of the matter comes down too, the only people hurt by album piracy are major players. Because if someone truly digs the music, they will go to the concert, buy the tickets to see it, where they make more money off ticket sales (and swag) then albums.
The rest of us, session guys, we are flat rate, I get paid the same if it was a sell out or not. I assume it's the same for most players as I am certainly not anyone special.

Besides didn't (and still is?) used to be, you sold the albums to pay for the record contract and made your money on tour?


Musicians are being paid MORE then they were 20 years ago. Go check the Union Rates. If you are lucky enough to get a union gig.
But 20 years ago, MP3 didn't exist. Schools had music programs. You can't compare 2 decades ago to today, that's just ludicrous. It's a completely different working environment. Social. Economic. Technological.

Stealing is, stealing. No one is arguing that. However if I can get it for free, from one source, then it doesn't matter what source.

I checked with a buddy of mine who went to an expensive So Cal film school, guess what? Same game over there, pretty much every movie, film, commercial, etc available for free, to take home and study at whim as a student and alumni. Music for me, Film for him.
Oh wait, I pay $9/month for NetFlix... so much for buying movies.

And let's play with brass tacks, Vinnie lays down LOTS of albums. If I "steal" some, it OBVIOUSLY ain't hurting his income. You know how much that guy makes?! Seriously

[circh bustom]

^^ I agree with you on everything, but you should have left that last line out.