Composed vs. Improvised solos

[Ardent15]

Wow... ok.


Haven't heard Mike with DT yet, but other solos of his in various context are very obviously filled with improvisation/free form. Peart on the other hand. I think it's a safety net with Peart, his playing hasn't changed in 30 plus years - pretty much the same solo for the last decade now as is. He delivers that particular product and (maybe?) has no interest in evolving any further as a musician.

Considering the number of guys who actually do pre-written out solos is in the utmost tiny minority, it's probably a personal thing. Soloing over a vamp, form, melody, structure, etc is the common place method.

Music is expression, a solo spot for drums is a chance to express whatever that drummer wants too. Imagine a person who repeated the same 2 paragraphs verbatim every single time someone asked their opinion? Talking points should never be applied to music.


Miles Davis -
“Do not fear mistakes. There are none.”
“If it sounds clean and slick, I’ve been doing it too long.”

In regards to Peart, I think he's going for a more "orchestral" type of arrangement with his solos. This would match up with the rest of that band-they all play their songs pretty much note for note.

Keep in mind, Neil Peart is not a jazz drummer. Most of his playing is for composed Rush songs. But I do agree with your point in general.

[chris perra]

I think it goes back to a classical approach vs a jazz approach..

A classical pianist or guitarist will perform to the best of their ability the exact same thing every time..

It's also how you practice and your focus on the instrument in general..
Neal Peart or Mike Portnoy most like don't practice to a set of shots or work on being able to do to any rhythm with any drum in any order..

They create specific parts...
What's the point of trying to improvise a solo if you don't know how because you don't work on it?...
Some people don't want to risk having good and bad nights solo wise..

The other thing is it's a matter of vocabulary,.. I personally don't believe that there is a true Improvised solo in the sense that someone played something they've never done before from scratch..

Just like you don't have a conversation or write a story making up words as you go along.. You learn the words and depending on the situation mix and match them.. Those who have a better understanding and a larger vocabulary of language are better at it. They just put more complex things together quickly, but the words are the same and you have to have worked on them ahead of time to be able to execute them.

The more you know,.. the better chance you have of not repeating yourself.. Which is a part of improvisational philosophy...

[Julián Fernández]

The whole "there´s no such a thing as improvising" is not true, imo...
The parallel with any other language is very valid, and proves that there´s true improvisation available for people that really want to explore it... The fact that we share and alphabet doesn´t mean that we are stuck with the same words and sentences; words are created all the time. Live languages are evolving creatures and music is indeed one.. Jazz (The Lick video comes to my mind) is about thinking in phrases and knowing your alphabet is mandatory, but the way you speak, the tone, the nuances, the volume, etc makes all the difference.
The more I play the more i´m interested in the being "right here right now" aspect of art... I found that the most present you are while playing, the most unique things come to the table.

It´s a really interesting topic; hopefully will be thoughfull posts... (Mr. Mark_griffith?)

[circh bustom]

Ive found over the years that even guys in the jazz realm who talk about improvisation follow a motif that can span years. Certain things they do, they do in every solo spot, developing ways in and out of it that may vary. Steve Smith definitely comes to mind with this. Even Vinnie has certain things he pulls out all the time. I saw him with Beck a few years ago and in his solo spot before Led Boots he pulled out some stuff I have seen on 5 Piece band vids. Personally, I like to not know what is going to come out. I'm not a "lick" guy, so I could really get lucky and pull off something I have never done before. If it's too planned, it's not a solo, more like a song.

[chris perra]

It's true that languages are living things in most cases.. but the majority if not all of the words most people use are not made up on the spot..
They wouldn't have any context or make any sense if you spontaneously made up every word you spoke..
Same thing with soloing I guess free jazz would be the closest thing to that..
That's the kind of Parallel I was trying to make.

[Julián Fernández]

Why do you think that if you don´t make up new words you´re not improvising? You can go further and say that if you don´t create new letters, new words aren´t new neither (just the old letters mix and matched).

[Jeremy Smirnoff]

The way I have played improvised solos has been simple - yes, there is a vocabulary of things you can do and you can move back and forth in between them. But if your vocabulary is large, so is your bank of ideas you can pull from or construct on the fly by using little bits and pieces. So, going back to say, 1999 or 2000, I think my vocabulary was so limited compared to now, but I still tried to construct little bits within that realm. Yes, looking back nowadays, it's all too cringeworthy, but at least I think I was still trying back then. I don't believe that one can go wrong in improvising a solo (especially in a vamp setting). One can rely on things they have practiced beforehand, but if there is no certain pre-determined flow, I think the results won't suffer much.

Another thing I find is that music (in a soloing context) is about taking chances and risks and sometimes I heard stuff on recordings of mind that I pulled off live that I didn't think I was ever capable of. Worse, I don't think I can replicate them again if I tried. It was a spontaneous moment in time where I felt it and just let things go. Then some people (other band members, etc) point things out to you and go "wow dude, that was cool..." and you are just as surprised as they are watching that footage cause you didn't ever think you could do THAT. And other times, it all just falls apart in your mind, but at the end people still dig it. Or sometimes they don't. I have been told a few times by fellow musicians that what I did in a solo was a rambling mess, but I wouldn't take that back and re-do it, because I feel that I am learning from my mistakes, and that's where the excitement in music comes from!

[chris perra]

It's just my interpretation of what improvised means..

To me, what most great musicians do who are considered great improvisors do is practice every possible permutation of rhythm an melody..
Using some sort of structure to develop it.. By practicing those things they are developing a vocabulary... which they insert here and there depending on the situation... But because they have pre practiced everything it's not true improvisation..

It's just semantics,.. for most people their interpretation is if it isn't rehearsed and you are making it up as you go along,.. It's improvised..That's cool and makes sense..

However.. to me if you don't practice the crap out of everything and build a vocabulary first. your solo or improvisation will be limited..

And you either get solos that repeat themselves alot or has the same thing in it every time..which would not be considered improvised or you get a lame solo..

[Josiah]

To me, what most great musicians do who are considered great improvisors do is practice every possible permutation of rhythm an melody..
Using some sort of structure to develop it.. By practicing those things they are developing a vocabulary... which they insert here and there depending on the situation... But because they have pre practiced everything it's not true improvisation..

I don't think that's entirely true, it would be impossible to systematically go through all the possible combination of hand/foot orchestrations around the kit. The number of possible permutations of rhythm in even a very limited context, say only 16th notes in a single 4/4 bar is astounding. With a 5 piece kit, 2 hands, two feet and a few cymbals it is literally in the millions. When you ad dynamics, different strokes (crushed, buzzed, doubles, triples, flams, etc) in addition to all the other note values, you now are well into the Trillions.

Most practice has to do with mechanical facilitation to be able to execute ideas that come into the mind. You see guys using favorite licks of course, the blushda .. however you are also seeing lots of brand new ideas, concepts and licks. I know I play new stuff all the time, that's what progression is.
Practicing the mechanical is one thing, say single strokes on a pad - the application of single strokes around the kit becomes something entirely different.

Drum set is a VERY new instrument, people are constantly playing things that have never been done before. In songs and solo contexts.

A lot of playing at the higher end is spontaneous, genius and innovative.

[chris perra]

It is impossible to go through every permutation on the drumset...
That's why everybody has a different voice...

What you are saying makes sense.. I just look at it a bit differently..