Revealing Simultaneous Relationship in Time

[chris perra]

Hey Deseipel,

Here is the 6/8 meter file you asked for. See attachment Six Eight meter .

I will answer your other questions in another post. I have to get back to work. I am in the finally editing stages of six ebooks
for rhythmschool.com.

It getting busy around here. To every man an answer. I am doing the best i can, but unfortunately, it is very difficult to answer multiple posts with detailed answers. Some people are mentioning awesome drummers as the definitive source for this and that.

In my opinion, brilliant mastery in an artistic playing performance being heard/seen and felt, does not mean that drumming masters are brilliant, in the artistic notation found in books and pdfs, and i am not referring to the colors used on those files. Here is a musical notation example to consider:

If i was to ask this question to every drummer in the industry who publishes, "in your music do you play Rhythmic Phrases"?
I believe everyone would answer "yes" to that question. In published interviews, the answer is always "yes".
They play phrases and talk about phrases.

Question: Do you ever see a Phrase Mark in any of their books and pdfs, to identify those Phrases being played heard and felt. A Phrase Mark, identifies a sequence of notes as a unified idea, a complete musical expression of shape and form. Without a phrase mark, all we have is a sequence of rambling notes without any shape or form.

In my opinion, the artistic performance of brilliant phrases being played and heard, should have a corresponding notation of those phrases with phrase marks being seen. In the books mentioned (and not mentioned), where are they?

This example confuses me.. 6 8th notes in a bar of 6/8 time makes sense, but fitting 5 8th notes in the same time doesn't to me.. because when I think of an 8th note.. it is 1/8th of a bar in 4/4 time..

Because a bar of 6/8 time fits 3 1/4 notes thus 6 8th notes.. fitting 5 of them evenly spaced would require 1 more quarter note worth of time in there some where.. like a fifth of an 8th note for each of the eighth notes..... Not to say you can't play 5 notes in the same time as 6 8th notes in a bar of 6/8 time.. but to notate them as 5 8th notes doesn't compute for me.. because they are a bit longer than that ...
Also.. how does the 32nd notes relate?.. they have no relation to the 5 "evenly spaced 8th notes" are they they for another pulse layer?

[Yussuf]

Hey Mark,

Just wondering, are you the same Mark Levine that wrote "jazz theory book" and "piano book"?

[Mark Levine]

Hey Yussuf,

No. i am not the jazz pianist.

[deseipel]

I agree that its all on how you look at the notes, 5:2 or 5:6, both work. It's all interpretation.

[Henry II]

When you say 5 stroke roll, do you mean the rudiment as traditionally taught, or do you mean single strokes with an accept on each 5th stroke? Because your examples don't notate a 5 stroke roll that I'm familiar with. Further, it seems to me that, as a practical matter, you would have to be playing at a very high tempo to play rudimental 5 stroke rolls as straight 8th notes in 4/4 time.

PS: Sorry, I just noticed the double stroke stickings below the staves. I don't think that 8th notes are a practical way to notate that concept.

[Phil T.]

Hey Mark,

Just wondering, are you the same Mark Levine that wrote "jazz theory book" and "piano book"?

Hey, I took jazz theory with Mark Levine years and years ago.

Edit: And a beginning jazz piano class, too...

[Juan Expósito]

If you can forgive the writing mistake on bar 45, it´s a very beautiful piece to play.

It´s the first time my wife says to me: "Play that again, please !!"

[Mark Levine]

Hey Chris,

The reason i use 8th note symbol notations for (5 and 6), is because of 32nd note division, that 8th notes can divide into.

Every 8th note on the top line (5) can divide into sextuplets, or a group of six.
Every 8th note on the bottom line (6) can divide into quintuplets, or a group of five.

The reason you saw only the quintuplet groupings, is because i used an abbreviated system.
One line of divisions for both (5 and 6).
The (5 eighth notes appear on 1 of every six 32nds). The (6 eighth notes appear on 1 of every five, or quintuplet 32nds).

Overlay five groups of six on top of six groups of five. They begin and end together perfectly. A cycle is created.
The 32nd note divisions, in groups of (five and six) overlay one another. Their speed is equal. They move at the same speed.

The 32nd notes in different groupings, provide the foundation for the (5 and 6), to be evenly spaced in each others time.
Notice that (5) is on the number 1 of every group of six 32nds. (6) is on the number 1 of every group of five 32nds.

(5 and 6) are separate speeds. In relation to each other, (5) is the slower speed. (6) is the faster speed. they are offset, until they cycle back to a united beginning.

[Lucas Ives]

Hey Jim,

You know nothing about me, but you verbalize assumptions about me.

I think Jim's point is it's all fine and good to re-think notation in a way that makes the most sense to you. But what do you DO with it once you've internalized it? Specifically, he's asking for you to put something up of you or one of your students using this type of thing musically ... making an emotional statement completely divorced from the math behind it.

It's been my experience that "the greats" don't think about this stuff in a super analytic way (such as you've presented). It's just not how those folks tend to arrive at statements that happen to use something rhythmically complex.

[chris perra]

That still confuses me as the "5's" 8th notes occurring every 6 32nd notes would actually equal a dotted 8th note wouldn't it?. and you could only fit 4 in a bar of 6/8 as there are 8 per quarter note, and only 3 in a bar.. Is there something I'm missing?

I'm going off the basis that an 8th is half of a quarter in 4/4 time
And there are 8 32nds in a quarter or 4 in and 8th note... thus 6 in a dotted eight..
I don't get how 6 32nds fit in an 8th note.