The age old "chops vs groove" debate

[Ardent15]

It is pretty obvious that "chops" is a commonly tossed around word in the world of drumming (and music in general). But what does it mean, exactly? I get the impression that a lot of people define "having chops" as the ability to play something or many phrases articulately, in time, in control, and at high speeds.

Obviously, guys like Vinnie and Weckl have TONS of "chops." But what about someone like Steve Gadd? Well, he doesn't play as FAST as Vinnie or Weckl (as witnessed on the BR memorial gig), but man...he has stellar control, time, articulation. He OWNS his phrases.

Which brings me to my next point-the "chops vs groove" debate. As Vinnie himself said in an interview once, it's not a black-and-white, either/or proposition. Some drummers who have great chops also have great groove. In fact, that is ideal, isn't it? And really, defining it as "chops vs groove" is too broad a brush for the world of music and drumming.

That being said, if given the choice between a drummer who just laid down a nice groove without fills, vs a drummer who played ONLY fills-well, we all know who most people would hire.

[Josiah]

totally its a package deal. like you said, if the one element isn't there(groove), then it negates the other being there(flash/chops).

i like to play. so in my case, i'll probably error on the side of too much then too little if the gig allows. though i think music is evolving, drummers as a whole are able to play a lot more then before. popular rock has gotten a lot more drum intensive imo.

[Henry II]

To me, chops refers to your technique, your technical facility. It doesn't really take musicality in to account. I think that's where the chops vs. groove debate comes from. Some drummers with minimal technical facility can, nevertheless, play some of the most beautiful, creative and muciacally satisfying grooves and statements on the drums.

But, chops isn't just a matter of speed. It's technique as a whole. In that respect, I think that Gadd is certainly equal to Vinnie or Weckl. In terms of musicality, that's too subjective to quantify IMO.

[gretsch-o-rama]

Check out Zildjian's Drummer Love contest. You'll see a lot of chops and so far only one guy that has a great groove...

Check Mike T. The other guy against him grooves pretty well too.
http://zildjian.com/DrummerLove/MidwestSouth/

[Josiah]

mm forgot to add, as a teacher (drumset or corps), i also teach time and note clarity above all else. if you can't play a phrase, give a note its full value, changes between note values, etc in time then it's all useless.

[DSOP]

I really like pork chops. BBQ if possible.

[gretsch-o-rama]

I really like pork chops. BBQ if possible.

Try Dinosaur BBQ, Rochester, NY lol

[Ardent15]

I really like pork chops. BBQ if possible.

Lamb chops are good too.

[Josiah]

it's all about the loin fella's...

[chris perra]

It's all a matter of context... Chops and groove should be relative to the music being played.. You couldn't hire Steve Gadd to play in a Death Metal band..
So for that music he wouldn't have the "Groove" needed.. Ha ha, that's using the term "Groove" differently than most of the people that would argue about groove vs chops would,..
In the end, pro's who are the best in their fields work on enough chops to fufill the musical requirements for the style.. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, and everyone has their physical limitations,.. or interest level in pushing their limitations.. But as long as they are serving the music, that's all that matters... Some styles of music require more chops than others...

I think the concern would be and the thing to judge players on is are they using their chops in the wrong context, are they serving the music ? does the music have room for it?. But then again music wouldn't have evolved if the Mersey Beat was the pinnacle of rock music..