Weckl's most scrumtrulescent solo...

[Henry II]

I seem to run across this a lot and don't really understand it.

Same. See it alot, I have no idea what Gruber even taught. Anyone expand on what he taught and why it was so bad?

Traditional grip. It's a mind control cult.

[Josiah]

Ha ha maybe with Peart but that's a whole different story...

Weckl and Vince were playing trad before they met Gruber

[Rodge]

ha.....never said "suck"...said "ruined for me"... I just don't like the new approach artistically. I saw a Weckl video of him describing the new Gruber approach saying something like "I used to work so hard to play" and then went on to say how he studied with Gruber and now is way more relaxed and uses less effort to play his ideas..... and it really comes through in his playing... he sounds really relaxed when he plays... that's just not exciting to me... when a drummer is putting alot of work into playing- you can hear it. If the drummer is just super relaxed--you can hear that too. It does work for me with some drummers, but mostly I like drummers who are putting their all into it.
I get the whole mechanics of the approach, but I don't understand the goal of making things as easy as possible...things take effort-- and you can hear it.
I still remember the first time I saw Tony Williams play and how it totally blew my mind...when he would do a fill it was like "I'm doing this fill in your face bitch" and he hammered into you....if your just "hey, I can move my hands in this fasion ----sooo relaxed... this fill requires soo little effort to pull off" it comes through in your playing.

again ....not dogging the players-they are legends, just saying for me, it doesn't strike the same chord

THANKS Jeff !!!

[langmick]

There is still something to be said for playing in an ergonomic fashion.

I was thinking about this the other day after reading a passage out of Gregg Allman's autobiography. Way back when, he was learning early on that you have to sing properly to be able to make it sound good and not hurt yourself. Some one passed on a little tip to him that hit home. You can't say his voice sounds like he's singing "easy" or too mellow. He belts it out.

When I practice, I do push myself, and have for a long time, to the point of getting a little sore and uncomfortable. I'm not sure it was always the best thing, and if I would be further along if I learned all the GruberMoellerMorello well-oiled approach.

IIRC, Weckl said he had to change the way he played because of physical problems.

[Rhythmatist]

To say someone is not giving their all because they are relaxed is silly. I saw Weckl a couple weeks ago with Oz Noy and there was no holding back of anything...his sound was HUGE and his pocket was friggin' deep even when soloing. I think what he talked about in his clinic the following night probably has more to do with the objections I'm hearing way more than anything passed on by Gruber. He's more focused, first and foremost, on providing the right rhythmic environment for his band mates and the audience. That doesn't mean he's not going for shit, believe me, there was a great deal of stretching going on with that band. And that's a big part of it too...what's the sense of losing everyone in the room and being the only one who knows where 1 is? That just doesn't make any musical sense at all and that's his message these days...play music, always; don't just wank. When they were challenging each other it was teetering on the edge and you could feel this incredible tension in the room. But when it all came back around and hit perfectly the place would go nuts.

[Josiah]

Freddy grip. It's a mind control cult.

Corrected. Honestly unless someone could break down why and how, with examples of before and after... it just sounds like some bullshit party line.


These guys are all monsters, giants of their instruments. Far above us. It's like the mouse saying to the cheetah "maybe you could run faster if you did it like this..."

[chris perra]

Check out any Steve Smith instruction video from the 80's then watch the new stuff.. It's all there for examples of before and after.

Gruber technique is a modified Moeller pertaining to the individual. The big thing that changes is the sound of your playing is more open and your ideas are more confined to the new mechanics of the technique.. Ideas that used to be muscled out don't get used as much.

Also, as a result of wanting to be effortless you can lose some of the edge that using more muscle groups can give you.. Steve Smith is probably the best example.. From an great rock/fusion drummer with edge and fire to someone who sounds like a big band drummer who plays rock/fusion ect..

Same ideas but a fluffier sound to it.. It's almost like a singer who is pushing things right on the edge of growl , but it has that extra tone dimension to it who gets retrained and now sounds like a crooner who sings rock. Easier on the voice and still can sing all the same notes. But doesn't have the same whoo haa that it used to..

[drummerjeff]

Freddy grip. It's a mind control cult.

Corrected. Honestly unless someone could break down why and how, with examples of before and after... it just sounds like some bullshit party line.


These guys are all monsters, giants of their instruments. Far above us. It's like the mouse saying to the cheetah "maybe you could run faster if you did it like this..."

Really???? youtube has a bizzillion(yes that's a number) videos where you can see examples.
I just find your statement funny....I didn't say anything negative about him, I just said I liked his earlier approach better....that's an opinion...just like I can say I like Sargent better than Van Gogh...I can have that opinion even though I don't paint. If I said Dave Weckl sucks at drumming now and could be better if he only did it my way, your statement might have some validity.
If your point is that you don't hear a differnce, well..... I don't know what to say to that, maybe spend more time listening.

[Jim Richman]

Post-Groob Weck plays 3 times as many notes than he did back in the early 80's.

[Josiah]

I just find your statement funny....I didn't say anything negative about him, I just said I liked his earlier approach better....that's an opinion...just like I can say I like Sargent better than Van Gogh...I can have that opinion even though I don't paint. If I said Dave Weckl sucks at drumming now and could be better if he only did it my way, your statement might have some validity.
If your point is that you don't hear a differnce, well..... I don't know what to say to that, maybe spend more time listening.

Just asking for you (or anyone) to quantify the statement - not qualify it. Nothing wrong with asking WHY your opinion is what it is. I've just never heard anyone actually explain why, it's always "well if you can't hear the difference.. blah.."

It works both ways, if you can't explain the difference, well....

People's playing changes, for a wide variety of reasons, which changes are specific to Freddy?